Messages posted by: MBrockway

Peter Cooper wrote:Mark,
This Sam Cooper was in No. 4 Commando and is mentioned in Donald Gilchrist's book, Don't Cry for Me'. I would have thought the chances of any pre-war TT riders also joining the Commandos would be very slim.
I live in the Isle of Man so have access to the Manx museum. If you had any possible names I could see if the museum could match them.

Peter

Peter,
That would be a pretty big cross reference task as nearly all of 2 Cdo took part at St Nazaire - only a small cadre was left behind as a nucleus from which to rebuild the unit if losses were high.

I think there's a list somewhere on-line, but I can't lay my hands on it just now! Otherwise it's transcribing a lot of pages from either Stuart Chant's or James Dorrian's books.

Peter's link above is to the Roll of Honour for the Fallen of St Nazaire rather than the full roll.

You know I reckon TT riders would be exactly the type of men who would be drawn to the commandos, so it wouldn't surprise me if there were more than one!

I'll see what I can do about getting you a list after Hogmanay has calmed down :)

Happy New Year!
Cheers,
Mark

Peter Cooper wrote:I have found a reference to a Sam Cooper (no relation) who was a pre-war TT rider. He was at Normandy but I have no idea if he was also at Dieppe. Hope this is of some help.

Peter Cooper

Peter,
I think Chris was looking for a TT rider from 2 Cdo who took part in Operation Chariot at St Nazaire.

There's no S. Cooper listed as being on the raid in Appendix 3 of Chant's St Nazaire Commando.

The closest matches were ...
Captain R.H. Hooper - 2 Cdo
Cpl G. Hooper - 1 Troop, 2 Cdo

It might be worth double checking these two for a transcription error to be 100% sure (Chant has T. McCormack as J. McCormack for example), but that seems very unlikely, and the initials are wrong anyway.

I checked the naval personnel too and there are no Coopers nor close matches.
Cheers,
Mark

Gavin wrote:Thanks Mark, I think from the lack of progress it might have been a private publication ? Gavin.

Could be :(

These are the books in the public domain I've found that deal in detail with 4 Cdo ...

James Dunning - various
Donald Gilchrist - Don't Cry for Me
Murdoch C. McDougall - Swiftly They Struck

Cross referencing these with the list of men who took part in the Dieppe Raid* (elsewhere on the CVA Forum here: Dieppe - 19 August 1942 - No 4 Commando) shows ...

No mention of Murdoch McDougall.

James Dunning is listed as 7893672 Tsm. Dunning J., (R.A.C.), so clearly is NOT in the same Troop as the mystery author whose TSM at Dieppe appears to be 6910706 Tsm. Stockdale W.R., (Rifle Brigade), who won the DCM at Dieppe, though I suppose we cannot completely discount the possibility TSM Stockdale's bayonet charge could have included men from another Troop.

Donald Gilchrist could be 90629 Lieut. Gilchrist D.J., Camerons, but your mystery author seems to be a private soldier or a junior NCO, not a lieutenant, so Gilchrist seems unlikely too. Also Don't Cry For Me appears to begin at D-Day without covering Dieppe, though I have not actually seen a copy to verify this!

If we assume that the work is definitely an eye witness account, which I think we're all agreed on, then none of these three authors seem to fit the bill perfectly.

It might be useful to confirm whether TSM Stockdale was TSM of "C" Troop at Dieppe or not - that would corroborate the "C" Troop link from the mention of Captain Style as the author's troop commander at Hauger and perhaps narrow things down a wee bit more!

Style was only a Lieutenant at Dieppe of course, presumably a Section Leader, but not necessarily in the same Troop he later commanded.

Best line of inquiry though is certainly via James Dunning, which Geoff already has in hand :)

HTH

CHeers,
Mark

[*Edit: this list is just those involved in the assault on the Hess battery lead by 4 Cdo rather than the whole Battle of Dieppe]

The pages appear to cover ...

Dieppe Raid - demolition of Hess Battery at Varengeville by 4 Cdo

D-Day - 6th June assault by 4 Cdo at Ouistreham after the county regiments in the 1st wave had stalled on the beach

D-Day - 10th June action by 4 Cdo at Hauger where Captain Style was wounded.

Captain Style was O/C "C" Troop and the author appears to belong to one of his "C" Troop sections.

Does that narrow it down at all?

HTH!
Cheers,
Mark

Pete wrote:For anyone visiting the cemetery at La Baule, Jim Dorrian has emailed me to mention that there is a full list of the fallen from St Nazaire on his website, and also a plan of the cemetery and where the individuals are buried. Here is that link to La Baule:
http://www.jamesgdorrian.com/the%20fallen_la%20Baule.html

Chris,
There's also Tom McCormack of 5 Troop, 2 Cdo, who Died of Wounds in hospital on 11th April 1942, a fortnight or so after the raid, and is buried at RENNES EASTERN COMMUNAL CEMETERY (Sec. 18. Plot 2. Row J. Grave 1).

There's a picture of the Commonwealth plot at Rennes here:
CVA Photo Gallery - Tom McCormack album

Tom's gravemarker is just to the right of the shelter in this picture.

Plan of the cemetery:
CWGC Plan of Rennes Cemetery

I'm not sure if any other of the "Charioteers" are buried there, I'm afraid, but I can say he's the only soldier there with a date of death between the Raid and the end of June 1942, so it rather looks like he has none of his comrades there with him.

It would be lovely if you could include Tom in your itinerary. Rennes is about 80 miles N of La Baule, but there's a fair chance you would pass through it if you're using Cherbourg or St Malo.

Cheers,
Mark

Stephen Donnison wrote:Stunning photos Pete i recognise Chant there with his helmet on ,, and the poor scotsman left to bleed to death

... who is Tom McCormack, 5 Troop, 2 Cdo, who was in Donald Roy's assault party on board the Campbeltown - see my separate topic.
Cheers,
Mark

mandy wrote:His name is Leonard Frank Bayliss . I believe he was a corporal 6467968.

Mandy,
Some further clarification:

Lance Sergeant is an Appointment where a soldier with the Rank of Corporal is appointed to perform the duties of a soldier holding the Rank of Sergeant.

As this was only an Appointment, it could be revoked by the commanding officer, whereas a soldier with the Rank of Sergeant could only be demoted by a Court Martial.

That extra flexibility probably suited commando units very well.

The down-side was that he usually still got corporal's pay, not sergeant's, and since he was officially still ranked a corporal, records/medals etc. often ignore the man's sergeant's status.

The exception to this is the Guards regiments and, I think, the HAC, where all corporals are known as Lance Sergeants!
HTH!
Cheers,
Mark

NIC wrote:Hi Mandy,
Further to my previous message, you will also find your grandfather listed in the book:
THE ATTACK ON ST NAZAIRE', by Captain Robert Ryder, VC, RN,

He is listed on page 114, Appendix III, as: L. Bayliss L/Sgt. 3 Troop, No 2 Commando.

Regards,
Nick

Mandy,
As further corroboration of which Troop he was in, Lance Sgt L. Bayliss is listed as 3 Troop, 2 Cdo, in Stuart Chant's St Nazaire Commando (Appendix 3, page 197).

I can strongly recommend James Dorian's excellent Storming of St Nazaire, which has near complete lists of who was in which boat and their allotted task during the Operation. However my mother currently has my copy, so I can't check that for you just yet!

Do you know your grandfather's original regiment from which he was attached to No 2 Commando?

Cheers,
Mark

mandy wrote:

Pete wrote:<<snip by Mark>>There is also a picture in that album of 3 members of 5 Troop taken I believe at the old Ayr Racecourse you mentioned. In fact No.2 Commando were due to stay in Perth but due to an incident with the Free Polish Division based there No. 2 moved to Ayr

I do believe my grandfather about about this incident in one of his letters . He was NOT happy that they had to leave and the Polish division where allowed to stay. I am aware of my grandfather mentioning a Bill whilst he was a pow.

Mandy,
Great to hear from you!

Was your grandfather in Ayr with 5 Troop 2 Cdo? Do you have any further information? Name, where he was captured etc.?
Cheers,
Mark

Edit:
Mandy - just found your other posts!

See here for everyone else:
L. Bayliss L/Sgt. 3 Troop, No 2 Commando
&
2 COMMANDO 2 TROOP

Mandy's grandfather was Lance Serjeant L. Bayliss, 2 Troop or 3 Troop, No 2 Commando captured at St Nazaire.

Cheers,
Mark

Pete wrote:Mark

If you are having difficulty email them to me with as much info on each pic as possible and I will upload

Regards

Thanks Pete!

I'm still getting the same problem with the anti-Spam Picture not displaying during the Registration process :(

Also I've already sent you a 6MB photo of Janet, Bill Harvey and Stephen Unwin, that my mother took at Achnacarry near Bob's memorial ... but it was too big to get into your Hotmail account!

Any idea what the filesize threshold for Hotmail is? I'll then shrink all of the pictures down and send them on to you. There are only a half dozen or so.

Cheers,
Mark

Folks,
Here's a scan of the Order of Service for the afternoon Memorial Service and Wreath Laying up at the Spean Bridge memorial courtesy of my mother Lorna Muir.

Cheers,
Mark

Dan,
I just tried to Register on the Gallery to upload some of my mother's photos from the Remembrance Weekend at Fort William, but failed miserably to complete the process! :(

There's the anti-spammer step where you have to enter a number that should be presented as a picture, but there was no picture and try as I might I could not get it to Show Picture - I just got a button with an "X" in it.

Could someone take a look?

Otherwise I'll e-mail the images to Geoff or to Pete Rogers and ask them to post them on our behalf!
Cheers,
Mark

Folks,
I thought I'd give you all an update on what my mother and I have been up to wrt to Tom McCormack, Bill Hughes and Syd Murdoch.

I've now acquired and devoured James Dorrian's Storming St Nazaire - very good and I echo the strong recommendation already made for it.

I've just started Dorrian's Battleground Europe book on St Nazaire, which we'll be using to plan out our trip to St Nazaire in due course.

James Dorrian has also established a correspondence with us which was a lovely surprise. It emerges he's not far away from me here in Cheshire & we're hoping to meet him when my mother is next down from Scotland.

I've also spoken with Dennis Reeves at the Liverpool Scottish Museum and we've both bought his excellent book. This is proving most useful and we now have a good understanding of Tom, Bill and Syd's experiences in Norway with Scissorforce, as well as a much clearer idea of where each of them was during the St Nazaire Raid.

I've spoken with Dennis on the phone several times and he has been helpful with advice about trying to trace the men's descendants. When my mother is next down from Scotland we'll be going up to Liverpool to meet Dennis and visit the Liverpool Scottish archives in New Zealand House.

I've also just managed to pick up a good copy of Stuart Chant's St Nazaire Commando, which I'll dive into soon.

By a very strange coincidence, my mother met Ian Chant-Sempill, Stuart Chant's son, at the Scottish Homecoming celebrations over the summer and had a very interesting conversation about Tom McCormack. As you're all aware, Stuart Chant appears close to Tom McCormack in many of the German photographs taken outside the Cafe Moderne. She found this chance meeting very emotional.

My uncle, her younger brother, who was born after the War, went over to St Nazaire later in the summer, but was unable to include a trip to Tom's grave in Rennes.

An even more curious co-incidence saw him fall into conversation with a total stranger, a Frenchman, in Escoublac-la-Baule Cemetery.

They shared their thoughts on the sacrifice of the commandos there and my uncle was moved at just how well the locals have kept their memory alive. The Frenchman then surprised my uncle by saying that there was one commando who was not buried there but at Rennes - Tom McCormack of course, and that he (the Frenchman) had made a special study of Tom! Both were aghast when my uncle then told him that Tom had been billeted with his parents in Ayr!

My uncle will be receiving some material from this local and I'll obviously share it with you all here.

Thanks again for all your help and we'll keep you posted on our progress.
Cheers,
Mark

Joe,
While not specifically about training areas, you might find the Topic about Tom McCormack, Bill Hughes and Syd Murdoch of 5 Troop, No 2 Commando interesting:

http://www.commandoveterans.org/cdoForum/posts/list/857.page

They were all billeted at my grandfather's house in Seafield, Ayr.

2 Cdo were based in Ayr in 1941 and 1942. The HQ was I believe in Wellington Square, and the men were billeted in Ayr, Prestwick, Troon and the neighbouring towns.

At least some of 2 Cdo's training took place in Ayrshire and Arran, so you should add them to your list!

Cheers,
Mark

Pete,
Excellent work. Are you going to let Nick know?
Cheers,
Mark