Messages posted by: dleblanc

I noticed he was attached to three flotillas. Some research of those flotillas would likely yields some results, including photos, vessel designations and their destinations.

grahamjp69 wrote:we can't find him mentioned in any nominal rolls on this site

Naval commandos were trained in the same manner as other commandos, but were not attached to the numbered units. Instead were attached to vessels and vessel services.

In the case of your grandfather, he was a shipwright. It's likely he accompanied or followed the main assault on D-Day, but remained near the beach maintaining, repairing or making vessels seaworthy for returning to the UK.

Copra - Combine Operations Personal Records and Accounts.

Clam Shell Keepsake

Port Aden and Bombay

Danny L wrote:Hi,
Below are some dates and locations for LCI(L) 304. Unfortunately I do not have the exact locations in each area.

LCI(L) 304
11/5/43 US Strategic Zone
8/6/43 "On Passage". To Mediterranean
29/6/43 Mediterranean Station
6/7/43 Mediterranean Station
20/7/43 21st LCI Flotilla. Mediterranean Station
3/8/43 21st LCI Flotilla. Mediterranean Station
31/8/43 21st LCI Flotilla. Mediterranean Station
2/11/43 2 LCI Flotilla. Mediterranean Station
23/11/43 12 LCI(L) Flotilla. East Indies Station. On passage to India.
14/12/43. 12 LCI(L) Flotilla. East Indies Station. On passage to India.
4/1/44 12 LCI(L) Flotilla. East Indies Station. India.
28/3/44 12 LCI(L) Flotilla. East Indies Station. East Indies.
29/5/44 East Indies Station. Pooled Reserve.

You could be right about the date. Did the photographer in the US put the date on?

Regards

Danny

Once again Danny, thank you for your reply and knowledge.

Yes sir, the date was marked on the image (which was cropped for this thread) I'm certain the month and day are mirrored from the British method.

The dates you've mentioned coincide with photos and other deployment information.

Just for information I've posted a couple of photos which are supported by the dates you've provided. One from Port Aden and two from Bombay.

We've uncovered an album my uncle put together after the war. He wasn't always allowed to take pictures everywhere he went, but managed a few here and there. However, he did collect post cards from Algeria, Syracuse, Augusta, Messina and Bombay. It appears when he was at a location in the postcard, he made hand written notes below each one.

The last few pages of the album have the pictures missing, but several notes allude he worked with elephant handlers in India.

Some of the notes include :

GROUP OF SHOLIGARS AND KURUMBERS ACQUAINTED WITH JUNGLE LIFE

GROUP OF ELEPHANT TRACKERS AND BEATERS

WILD HERD IN THE FOREST

A CAPTURED TUSKERS BROUGHT TO THE RIVER WITH KUMKEES

REMOVING NEWLY CAPTURED ELEPHANTS BY THE AID OF KUMKEEES

KHEDDA GATE VISITORS PLATFORM

KUMKEES ON TRAINED ELEPHANTS ENTERING THE STOCKADE

WILD ELEPHANTS ENTERING THE STOCKADE

ROPE TYING OPERATION

PUTTING ON LEG HAWSER

NOOSING OPERATION WITH THE KHEDDAS

CAPTURED ELEPHANTS HOBBLED INSIDE STOCKADE

ELEPHANTS MADE FAST

TRAINING A TUSKER

TRAINED ELEPHANTS AT WORK

ELEPHANTS WATERING AT RIVER

Even in the absence of imagery and gathering by these notes, Hannibal would be impressed by commandos.

We also uncovered one of a few known pieces my uncle collected while abroad. He picked up clam shells and marked dates and events. My cousin is searching the remainder, but I've posted an image of one.

It's marked:

April 16th/44

Drafted Reliefs Achieved.

While not a broadly significant event, it certainly suggests a personal accomplishment with training relief. Likely for Burma deployment?

Although there's still much to do filling the gaps, I'm overjoyed to have a greater understanding of my uncle's service timeline and impressed by the highly diverse roles commandos undertook during WW2. I enjoy following threads and viewing the images posted on this site.

I'm grateful to everyone for helping researchers and sharing their stories.

Salute

Hi again folks.

I've made considerable inroads gathering my uncle's service records. A recent package contained several documents (ie) medical and employment history, attestations etc. Medals awarded are listed as 1939-45 Star, Italy Star, Canadian Volunteer Service Medal (with clasp) and War Medal. Also noted was G. C. B. presumed to be a Good Conduct Badge.

I've posted an image of his class at the diesel training school in Detroit. My uncle is in the back row, fourth from the right. Perhaps other contributors to this forum may recognize their relatives in this image.

However the date conflicts with the invasion of Sicily. In the bottom right corner shows the 4th of July 1943 (4-7-43). Is it possible this could be backwards in format from say... April 7, 1943? The latter seems to coincide with his timeline more accurately.

I've also included his service timeline, where it shows his entrance to HMS Copra (Combined Ops), Asbury, Dinosaur, Niobe and notes service in India. L.C.I 304 is referenced as his boat while he was rated Stoker I. Included in the package was a list of codes, but only one -- D.E. -- shows as a destroyer escort. Otherwise, I'm at a loss at what many of these codes mean.

Any help with this is greatly appreciated.

Likewise, a cursory Google on "LCI 304" yielded the commission and layup dates from a builder in New Jersey, loan to the RN and it's return to the US in 1946. No images were found, but if any exist, I'd be thrilled to see them.

mallonj67 wrote:Were ANY of these commando units supported by dedicated Combine ops personnel throughout all of their ops with dedicated Landing craft and dedicated Combined ops personnel.

My uncle (a Canadian volunteer) was a commission warrant with the RN from 1942 until discharged in 1945. Most combined ops commandos wore khaki, were assigned ranks and went ashore, but a greater part of the boat crews themselves were naval ratings. These crews had much greater roles than navigation and boat handling. Following the failed raid on Dieppe, the powers that be decreed no person would set foot on a beach again without adequate training and familiarization with beach tactics. Likewise, these crews served as trainers and mentors to new soldiers (namely Americans late for the war) for landings in Sicily, Burma and France (among other raids). They were also highly trained not just to land personnel and retreat, but to hold the beach in the event of counter attack, to provide logistical support to land based units and undertake the evacuation of dead and wounded.

I have a few requests pending on my uncle's specific service history, but have gained quite a lot of insight on his timeline nonetheless. Much of his mission was highly classified and on previous requests a lot of things were redacted. Now that time has passed and he's been dead more than twenty years, I'm expecting a reasonably complete service record this time around.

To address your question, yes. As a combined ops sailor, my uncle was a RN Commando, P.O. First Class Stoker and Motor Mechanic attached to flotillas in Morocco (Operation Torch), Sicily (Operation Husky) and mainland Italy before being transferred to the Jungle Warfare Training School in India, in late August or early September of 1943. Commando units were often reorganized, re-designated or disbanded, so any one person remaining in the same posting was unlikely. Even though service roles changed, my uncle always remained attached to landing craft.

Do you know what your uncle's rating and trade was? Do you have a service number? Like yourself, I'm curious about specific vessels and crew rosters, but this information is difficult obtain because many of the daily records of movements were destroyed in subsequent years although service records might pinpoint some assignments or postings. Some of the best findings are personal accounts from other sailors, their photographs and post-war writings.

In your example, you mentioned "A&O&H". Could you please explain what this unit is? I'm curious because the timeline coincides with my uncle's history and I'm looking under every rock for clues to my uncle's history. Likewise, I'm intrigued to research and browse images at the kedgehook.co.uk site, once the site is up.

Best of luck in your research.

Dave

I also did some forensic analysis work on his medals from an image. The actual medals have been misplaced, but are being sought in the meanwhile.

At first, we thought his theater stars were Italy and Burma (or Pacific). However, given the order they are worn and the colors of the ribbons, this cannot be correct.

He participated in landings in North Africa during November of 1942. Operation Torch. We were uncertain whether this was was Morocco or Algiers, but I would have thought this may have been an Africa Star, but there is no N. Africa clasp and the ribbon patterns do not match. However, if he didn't transit Gibraltar this was probably an Atlantic operation. The ribbon closer resembles the Atlantic Star. Following this operation, they returned to the Clyde in preparation of the flotillas for the circumnavigation of Africa to Suez during Christmas of that year. This also supports that Neil was not at HMCS Stadacona as the Christmas card suggests, insomuch as a diversion from the secrecy of Operation Husky.

Likewise, subsequent stationing at the Jungle Training School in India was not a theater of battle.

Therefore it seems reasonable these are Atlantic Star, Italy Star, Canadian Volunteer Service Medal with Maple Leaf Clasp and the War Medal.

My cousin uncovered a uniform with intact insignia. I'm assuming this was from 1944, after being promoted to Motor Mechanic.

I put in a request at the Archives of Canada for Access to Information - Protected (ATIP), as previous reports were heavily redacted. I received a preliminary notice requiring a death certificate, even though it's been more than twenty years since his passing. They also mentioned the request would take upwards of five months to research, process and clear. This was late in November 2015 and I'm hopeful to see something by the end of April.

From your tips, I found something that helps this search a lot.

https://archive.org/stream/RCN_Beach_Commando_W_Part_1/PartI-RcnBcW_djvu.txt

"Speaking on behalf of Mr. Churchill, the First Sea Lord suggested five specific ways that Canada
might assist the Royal Navy meet its current manpower shortages :

(1) one or two cruisers to be taken over by the Royal Canadian
Navy, at a later date, progressive training of Canadian
personnel to be arranged meantime;

(2) two Fleet destroyers to be manned by the R.C.N, in December
of this year, or soon after, conditions of transfer to be for
subsequent discussion;

(3) the R.C.N, to form a Canadian unit of three flotillas of landing
craft complete with squadron and flotilla staffs (approximately
350 men), training, in Britain, to be completed by the spring
of 1944;

(4) the R.C.N, to form one Beach Commando and one Beach
Signal Unit (approximately 1,000 [sic] men), training, in
Britain, to be completed by the spring of 1944; and

(5) the R.C.N, to provide 120 "C.W." (Commission Warrant)
candidates for training in Britain and loan to the Royal Navy. "

The document goes on to lead to this:

"Nov. 29 Naval Board meeting (#138) state that personnel committed to man three Flotillas of LCI(L), one
Beach Party and staff are being provided under the following scheme:

(a) From untrained personnel from Canada (these have already
been supplied)

(b) From ratings trained in the West Coast School

(c) From Canadian personnel at present serving with Combined
Operations in the United Kingdom "

Then most importantly:

"1. Officers will wear "Canada" flashes in gold with navy blue background on
their blue and khaki uniforms, and in blue with white background on their
white uniforms.

2. Ratings will be issued six "Canada" flashes in red with navy blue
background and four in blue with white background.

3. The "Commando" (and not the "RN Commando") flash will be worn below
the "Canada" flash. The "RN" part is to be eliminated."

"W" Commando was attached to the Army. My uncle was attached to the Royal Navy. I'm increasingly certain he was one of those 120 CW's.

Danny L wrote:Do you have any postal addresses for him when in the Far East ? Naval Party number ?

No, but I do have a Christmas card that puts him at HMCS Stadacona. I'm stuggling to figure out which year though. He joined the RCNVR in April of 1942,training in Scotland in the fall, then to North Africa in November then back to Scotland to prepare the flotillas for the March departure to Suez.

Here's the thing though. Nothing shows him there in 1942, (at least not yet) Interestingly enough, I found this (albeit grainy) image from HMCS Stadacona, late in 1941, noting several men joined the 80th flotilla. The man in the second row from the back, third from the left has a striking resemblance by family members when asked if they could pick anyone out. He appears to have no hat band? Could this be?

We do know one thing. He lied his age and was found out. Lots of young guys did, but he did the opposite. He said he was younger. He would have been 33 at the time. Do you think it is possible he enlisted earlier, then re-enlisted for administrative (or classified) reasons?

As for his service records. My cousin requested his records several years ago, but got back very little and most was redacted. He doesn't have the documents and his recollection is limited to Neil being deferred to RN service. However, I put in a special request for access to protected information. I hope for at least something to place him somewhere.

Again Danny, thank you for this valuable information. I'll now proceed to research these leads.

Thank you, Pete. Very helpful information.

I managed to uncover this from my uncle's effects. Is the red star for PO or rating? Canadian or RN?

Danny L wrote:Hi,
The photograph was taken on the stern of a Landing Craft Infantry (Large), LCI(L). Looks like it was taken from the Oerlikon gun position on the port side.

It is going to be pretty hard to track down a crew list. A lot of the paperwork was not archived after the war and if it was there have also been clear-outs since then. What would be of interest today to researchers was just not considered worth saving by some authorities

Again, thank you for an informative reply.

There is no date on the image, but I suspect it's during training missions in North Africa.

And yes, a crew list is difficult so I've been looking into other publications like war journals, newspapers and books.

To refine this search, would I be correct to suggest he was with Royal Navy Commandos? not Royal Marine Commandos? Were boat and pilotage commandos something yet again? I also see the "Beach" commandos, but they have army ranks, not navy.

One thing I've found that was quite striking was the respect of Canadian "stokers" on these flotillas as mentors. Apparently, they were hard to keep on, because British officers wanted them for other duties. Being mechanics, they were probably shuttled from ship to craft with great frequency and unless they logged things themselves, the opportunity to track movements is near to impossible.

I've been focusing on Operation Husky, because I'm actually trying to place him somewhere. I've hardly scratched the surface of the Jungle Training School in India, so if you have any suggestion where I might find something, I'm all ears.