MM Neil (Niilo) Matias Nylund - Combined Operations RCNVR V31552

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 25/08/2016 03:43:07

Hi, my name is Dave LeBlanc. I'm from Tofino, BC, Canada.

In recent months, I have been researching the history of my Grand Uncle Neil Nylund.

He was a Finnish immigrant in Canada. A member of Asevelikerho - Thunder Bay Finnish War Veterans

http://www.finlandiaclub.ca/org_asevelikerho.html

Neil volunteered in April 1942 aboard HMCS Griffon. It's my understanding he was selected for his mission because he was a Forest Ranger, an avid outdoorsman, multilingual and in top physical condition. He was sent to Detroit for diesel mechanical training.

He shipped out later that fall and was known to reappear at The Clyde in Scotland, where he trained with the Royal Marine Commandos.

It's my understanding, four flotillas sailed from The Clyde that year, stealthily detouring away from Gibraltar, favouring Cape of Good Hope for the Suez Canal and Egypt. However, the 80th Landing Craft - Mechanized stood out, after all he was trained as an engineer. There was one other LCM group, but after Operation Husky, they went to France. Instead, the 80th went to Bombay, from which it's known my uncle trained with Gurkhas.

Dave

Here's a few more images.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 29/10/2015 15:06:22

I have many questions and look to this group for some help, where possible.

Does anyone know where I can find the nominal roles of the 80th LCM during WW2?

Apparently, the 80th and 81st LCM are designations for American fleets today.

At first, I thought Neil was in W Commando, but nowhere do I see his name on any roster. Not much in W Commando jives with Neil's history either, other than "held in reserve" on D-Day France.

It's my understanding he was "on loan" to the Royal Marines, but again... no nominal roles.

Was "Detroit" identical to the 2nd Special Ops as "Helena" was to the 1st (Devil's Brigade)?

Does anyone know the name of the operation?

After the invasion of Sicily, and award winning journalist mentioned the success of the 80th, but if you notice in a side column, discusses a secret mission to train American soldiers in beach landings in North Africa.

He was an engineer, but it wasn't that simple. I'm certain he was part of a much larger, secret operation similar to that of the Devil's Brigade. Diesel technology would have been state-of-the-art in those days and that flotilla probably covered more global miles than the Spanish Armada. Likewise, probably transported more troops, vehicles and tonnage than any other single unit in the history of warfare.

From 9 July to 5 August 1943, 24 landing craft of the 80th and 81st LCM flotillas transported 9,000 vehicles, 40,000 men, and 40,000 tons of supplies.

Does anyone know where the fleet was built? I'm assuming Higgins Marine, but they had several locations. Ohio or Mass.

Does anyone know when and where this fleet sailed from North America. Would they have participated in beach ops in Norway along the way?

Hi
Some information on Nominal Rolls here http://www.navalandmilitarymuseum.org/archives/articles/service-matters/rcn-nominal-lists

You might want to get his service records. They may have information on his service after Sicily and Italy. Obtaining service records http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/research/genealogy.htm

The LCM Mk3 that went into the 80th Flotilla arrived in the UK between October and December 1942. On arrival they were located in Liverpool, Dumbarton and Port Glasgow.
.
The twelve craft allocated to the 80th Flotilla were 525, 610, 617, 618, 619, 644, 645, 906, 907, 908, 922, 925.

They probably came across as deck cargo.

See the article in "Motor Boating" May 1944 for information on training at Detroit on diesel engines.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=3KVqn7jDtoQC&pg=PA115&lpg=PA115&dq=training+on+diesel+engine+in+detroit+1942&source=bl&ots=4QHDkxa0-b&sig=UPDIvDTja0ESyfNjs1GSlEguctk&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=training%20on%20diesel%20engine%20in%20detroit%201942&f=false

There is a good piece on Canadians in Combined Operations here. It mentions the 80th Flotilla. https://donkemsleyjournal.wordpress.com/2015/07/10/combined-operations-in-the-canadian-navy-1943/

Some information I have on the 80th Flotilla in 1943

Trained at Combined Training Centre near Plymouth then training in the Clyde area. After that two weeks boat training at Rosneath. They then went to Southend (HMS Westcliffe ?) for ten days disciplinary training.

The four Canadian flotillas were allocated to Force "W" until after the training in the Suez area. Later known as Force "G".

80th sailed on SS Glenartney, SS Pardo and SS Silver Walnut.

5 craft were left behind at Alexandria.

Regards

Danny

Danny L wrote:The LCM Mk3 that went into the 80th Flotilla arrived in the UK between October and December 1942. On arrival they were located in Liverpool, Dumbarton and Port Glasgow.
.
The twelve craft allocated to the 80th Flotilla were 525, 610, 617, 618, 619, 644, 645, 906, 907, 908, 922, 925.

They probably came across as deck cargo.

Some information I have on the 80th Flotilla in 1943

Trained at Combined Training Centre near Plymouth then training in the Clyde area. After that two weeks boat training at Rosneath. They then went to Southend (HMS Westcliffe ?) for ten days disciplinary training.

The four Canadian flotillas were allocated to Force "W" until after the training in the Suez area. Later known as Force "G".

80th sailed on SS Glenartney, SS Pardo and SS Silver Walnut.

5 craft were left behind at Alexandria.

Regards

Danny

Thank you for the reply.

Other family members searched his records and drew blanks other than when he signed on and noted as "on loan" to the RN.

Crew (cox'n, engineer etc.) would be coordinated differently from fighting personnel, am I correct? He does not appear on the attached roll for W Commando. The crews themselves were hand picked officers from Dieppe and other landings who's job it was to put equipment ashore, then manage supply after they've moved out.

Thank you again for the training, allocation and deployment details. Very helpful gaps in this story.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 11/11/2015 21:07:42

You appear to have researched well to date so you are likely to have seen this already, but just in case you missed it, and for the benefit of others, here it is. One of our former members and a veteran of W Commando, the late Bill Newell, wrote his own account of the Commando and it can be found here on our website along with some photos:

http://gallery.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/WW2/comb+ops/W+Cdo/

Additionally the newspaper article you posted, is cut off. Without seeing the rest, it looks as if it might be referring to the training going on at Special Training Centres located at various places in the UK particularly Scotland including Ardentinny, Achnacarry, and others. This would have been classed secret.

Toledo Blade July 12, 1943

Pete wrote:Additionally the newspaper article you posted, is cut off. Without seeing the rest, it looks as if it might be referring to the training going on at Special Training Centres located at various places in the UK particularly Scotland including Ardentinny, Achnacarry, and others. This would have been classed secret.

Thank you for your reply.

Yes, rather than going ashore, his mission was to stay with boat and train men, presumably as engineers and mechanics. When the equipment is running, ship's engineer often carries out the duties of the deck hands.

The great difficulty I'm encountering is how crews themselves were managed. Each craft would need a cox'n, engineer and a seaman. Can anyone suggest a place I might look for RN or Combined Ops crew manifests?

And for better information on the mission, I've posted the entire article from the Toledo blade. Interestingly enough, the author makes no mention of Canadians at Dieppe, but technically he's correct, because my Uncle my uncle was embedded with the RN.

Using the process of elimination, when I look at the Canadian 55th, 61st, 80th and 81st flotillas, only the 80th is fully diesel. Likewise, after Operation Husky it was the only unit reassigned to Bombay, where the other three went to France. Understanding of course, anyone can be reassigned from any unit at any time, for any reason.

I have one photograph of Neil aboard a landing craft. The images says "Niilo LCI" but I'm not sure what type of landing craft this is. He certainly looks more like crew than a passenger or troop.

Hi,
The photograph was taken on the stern of a Landing Craft Infantry (Large), LCI(L). Looks like it was taken from the Oerlikon gun position on the port side.

It is going to be pretty hard to track down a crew list. A lot of the paperwork was not archived after the war and if it was there have also been clear-outs since then. What would be of interest today to researchers was just not considered worth saving by some authorities.

You could try asking on the Canadian Soldiers forum, http://www.network54.com/Forum/28173 , they get a few researches on there who might be able to help you with information on Canadian archives.

Regards

Danny

Danny L wrote:Hi,
The photograph was taken on the stern of a Landing Craft Infantry (Large), LCI(L). Looks like it was taken from the Oerlikon gun position on the port side.

It is going to be pretty hard to track down a crew list. A lot of the paperwork was not archived after the war and if it was there have also been clear-outs since then. What would be of interest today to researchers was just not considered worth saving by some authorities

Again, thank you for an informative reply.

There is no date on the image, but I suspect it's during training missions in North Africa.

And yes, a crew list is difficult so I've been looking into other publications like war journals, newspapers and books.

To refine this search, would I be correct to suggest he was with Royal Navy Commandos? not Royal Marine Commandos? Were boat and pilotage commandos something yet again? I also see the "Beach" commandos, but they have army ranks, not navy.

One thing I've found that was quite striking was the respect of Canadian "stokers" on these flotillas as mentors. Apparently, they were hard to keep on, because British officers wanted them for other duties. Being mechanics, they were probably shuttled from ship to craft with great frequency and unless they logged things themselves, the opportunity to track movements is near to impossible.

I've been focusing on Operation Husky, because I'm actually trying to place him somewhere. I've hardly scratched the surface of the Jungle Training School in India, so if you have any suggestion where I might find something, I'm all ears.

I managed to uncover this from my uncle's effects. Is the red star for PO or rating? Canadian or RN?

If you check out the Royal Canadian Navy Regulating Branch And Naval Police Ratings' Uniforms 1910 - 1948 on this website it gives the regulations for the RCN.

"Section 111 Regulations for Badges of Rating and Distinction" would appear to apply in the case of your insignia.

**Leading Stoker (passed for Stoker Petty Officer).- Propeller, star above

http://mpmuseum.org/rcn1918dregs.html

Thank you, Pete. Very helpful information.

Hi,
A few more bits.

Regards

Danny

He would have come under Combined Operations.

The Combined Operations Pilotage Parties surveyed the landing beaches before the landings. It sounds like the "Beach Commandos" with army ranks could be the Beach Groups or Beach Brick units.

Husky - 80 Flotilla worked on "George Beach" in the ACID Area.

Force "G" General Drafting Organisation

Allocation of Combined Operations personnel in the Middle East is done by the directorate of Combined Operations, Middle East, (D.C.O.) through HMS Saunders (at Kabret).

All drafting within Force "G" will be done by Rear-Admiral (G). HMS Saunders, HMS Quebec and HMS Armadillo will be kept informed monthly.

Liaison with HMS Saunders is maintained by Staff Officer (Records), Force "G", who keeps a complete record of Force "G" Personnel. It is therefore necessary that Rear-Admiral (G) be kept informed of all movements of personnel in the Force.

Drafting between units will be reduced to the minimum.

Draft Notes will be issued by the Staff Officer (Records), Force "G". The receiving unit is to return to S.O.(R) the duplicate copy of the draft note as soon as the rating joins.

Nominal List of Flotilla Personnel, Beach Commandos and Beach Signals Sections.

A nominal list of all Force "G" personnel is to be forwarded to R.A.(G) monthly to reach my office by the 5th of the month.

Compliment

Per LCM - 1 Coxswain, 4 Seamen, 1 Stoker.

Flotilla Maintenance Party - 1 Engineer Officer, 1 E.R.A., 3 Motor Mechanics, 1 Joiner or Shipwright, 2 Stokers (M), 1 Wireman.

On the 1st February 1943 80 Flotilla was part of the First Squadron.

First Squadron.

11 Group (Canadians)
55 LCA Flotilla
61 LCA Flotilla
81 LCM Flotilla
80 LCM Flotilla

12 Group
70 LCP Flotilla
71 LCP Flotilla
114 LCM Flotilla

C Beach Commando

Do you have any postal addresses for him when in the Far East ? Naval Party number ?

Danny L wrote:Do you have any postal addresses for him when in the Far East ? Naval Party number ?

No, but I do have a Christmas card that puts him at HMCS Stadacona. I'm stuggling to figure out which year though. He joined the RCNVR in April of 1942,training in Scotland in the fall, then to North Africa in November then back to Scotland to prepare the flotillas for the March departure to Suez.

Here's the thing though. Nothing shows him there in 1942, (at least not yet) Interestingly enough, I found this (albeit grainy) image from HMCS Stadacona, late in 1941, noting several men joined the 80th flotilla. The man in the second row from the back, third from the left has a striking resemblance by family members when asked if they could pick anyone out. He appears to have no hat band? Could this be?

We do know one thing. He lied his age and was found out. Lots of young guys did, but he did the opposite. He said he was younger. He would have been 33 at the time. Do you think it is possible he enlisted earlier, then re-enlisted for administrative (or classified) reasons?

As for his service records. My cousin requested his records several years ago, but got back very little and most was redacted. He doesn't have the documents and his recollection is limited to Neil being deferred to RN service. However, I put in a special request for access to protected information. I hope for at least something to place him somewhere.

Again Danny, thank you for this valuable information. I'll now proceed to research these leads.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 24/11/2015 07:49:55

From your tips, I found something that helps this search a lot.

https://archive.org/stream/RCN_Beach_Commando_W_Part_1/PartI-RcnBcW_djvu.txt

"Speaking on behalf of Mr. Churchill, the First Sea Lord suggested five specific ways that Canada
might assist the Royal Navy meet its current manpower shortages :

(1) one or two cruisers to be taken over by the Royal Canadian
Navy, at a later date, progressive training of Canadian
personnel to be arranged meantime;

(2) two Fleet destroyers to be manned by the R.C.N, in December
of this year, or soon after, conditions of transfer to be for
subsequent discussion;

(3) the R.C.N, to form a Canadian unit of three flotillas of landing
craft complete with squadron and flotilla staffs (approximately
350 men), training, in Britain, to be completed by the spring
of 1944;

(4) the R.C.N, to form one Beach Commando and one Beach
Signal Unit (approximately 1,000 [sic] men), training, in
Britain, to be completed by the spring of 1944; and

(5) the R.C.N, to provide 120 "C.W." (Commission Warrant)
candidates for training in Britain and loan to the Royal Navy. "

The document goes on to lead to this:

"Nov. 29 Naval Board meeting (#138) state that personnel committed to man three Flotillas of LCI(L), one
Beach Party and staff are being provided under the following scheme:

(a) From untrained personnel from Canada (these have already
been supplied)

(b) From ratings trained in the West Coast School

(c) From Canadian personnel at present serving with Combined
Operations in the United Kingdom "

Then most importantly:

"1. Officers will wear "Canada" flashes in gold with navy blue background on
their blue and khaki uniforms, and in blue with white background on their
white uniforms.

2. Ratings will be issued six "Canada" flashes in red with navy blue
background and four in blue with white background.

3. The "Commando" (and not the "RN Commando") flash will be worn below
the "Canada" flash. The "RN" part is to be eliminated."

"W" Commando was attached to the Army. My uncle was attached to the Royal Navy. I'm increasingly certain he was one of those 120 CW's.