Black shoulder titles

Hallo guys, hope someone can help me out...

Till about when did 3 Commando use the shoulder titles with the black backing and did these 'early' shoulder titles always mention the Troop number ?

Hi Peter

Don't know if this will be of much help but I have scanned and attached the relevant pages concerning No3's insignia form Peter Taylor's book
"Allied Special Forces Insignia 1939 - 1948.

Cheers Andy

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 05/01/2009 19:30:14

THANKS Andy! I also had a look in my books and Brian L Davis does mention in British Uniforms & Insignia of WW2 that the shoulder titles with blue backing came into being in 1943 (so I presume after Sicily???)

Small eror in the text of the book is that 3 Commando was the foirst to be raised. Infact 2 (Parachute) Commando and 3 Commando were raised at the same time but because of the training difficulties for parachuting 3 Commando was the firts ready for combat...

Thanks for the photo. very clear

Peter

Actually, although there are only weeks or even days apart, No 3 Commando were the first Commando raised with Capt John F Durnford-Slater RA as the first Commando soldier of the war, being appointed (in the rank of Lt Colonel) as the Commanding Officer on 28 June 1940. No's 1 and 2 did not exist at this time, as it had originally been intended to raise them as airborne units. The original No 2 Commando as we know, eventually became No 1 Battalion the Parachute Regiment, concurrently reforming as No 2 Commando.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 07/01/2009 07:12:23

Geoff, maybe I do not understand you correct but No.2 and No.3 Commando were formed at the same time... On the same day the CO of No.2 Commando (that later became 11 SAS and after that 1 Para - infact they were also the first SAS unit to be formed, and they were not an invention of Stirling!) was apointed also Durnford Slater was appointed.
So No. 3 Commando was not the only and first Commando formed, but they were the first combat ready...
There was also no intention to raise No.1 Commando as a parachute Commando. It was planned to reorganize the Indep Coy's and from organize from them No.1 Commando.

By the way... when Durnford-Slater was appointed to command 3 Commando he still had the rank of Captain...

Hi Peter and welcome to the forum. I am certainly no expert and only go off what I have read over the years. There are so many resources to choose from and so many that conflict. I think it would be easier to say that although 2 and 3 (and 4) may have been appointed on paper at the same time, the claims made that No 3 Commando were formed, manned and hit the ground running first are likely to be correct. According to Durnford-Slater himself, there was indeed talk initially of forming both No 1 and No 2 Cdo as parachute troops, a policy which was subsequently abandoned for No 1, however this may be contradicted elsewhere. D-S was a substantive Captain (actually an acting Major) prior to his appointment as CO of No 3, which is why I referred to him as Captain in my previous post. It was on appointment that he was promoted to Lt Colonel.

With regards to the flashes, I recently spoke to our Chairman, Stan Scott, who was No 3, who mentioned that the red on blue backing came in circa early '43. It evolved quite quickly from 'Commando' to 'Commando' with the number above, then to 'No 3 Commando'; the troop numbers below were at the descretion of the CO and did not last long.

Keep up the threads

Geoff

Thanks Geoff,

I do not call myself an expert Geoff, just someone who is researching WW2 as a hobby. My main interest in the past 20 years has been the training and formation of No.2 Commando/11 SAS/1 Para (incl Arnhem) . Have lots of documenst copied at the PRO during the visits I made during the years.
What I wrote on the forum is based on documents from the PRO about the formation of the Commandos. Must say that in most books I have read there are a lot of mistakes and I always will go for original documents first. I can assure you there was never a intention to train No.1 Commando for parachutists. D-S has that wrong ! Anyway he was a great soldier !
I do not have much about 3 Commando, but my intention is to make some visits at the PRO for wardiary's and other document etc and maybe I can work out a small webpage.
I am also doing a bit of reenactment (Fallschirmjäger) but want to do something 'new' and I am now sorthing out a uniform for a 'early war' commando presentation.
Thanks about the info on the shoulder titles.

Peter

Hi Peter, surely just because there may not have been anything put down on paper, does not mean there may not have been 'talk' of something happening, as I mentioned. Although possible, to say DS is wrong is quite a call. He was quite an integral part of the forming of the Commando's and played a huge part within them, so I am sure he would have been well informed. He even mentions this, albeit briefly, in his memoirs. Anyway, good luck with your research on No 3. Some of our members will already have copies of war diaries etc so you could maybe put a request on the forum. A webpage or folder in our Gallery may be an option to add these to in future, I'll look into it.

Good luck with the uniform.

The state of readiness of Independent Companies, Parachute Commando (note Singular) and Irregular Commandos at 26 July 1940 was as follows: with numbers of Officers and men under the states of 'Trained and ready to operate' 'still under training' 'now forming' 'still to form'.

Independent Companies:
4 & 5 Ind. Coys. had formed and were in Scotland, No10 was also formed, the others were under training or still forming.

Parachute Commando
The Parachute Commando had Officers and men in the three states of 'training', 'forming' or 'still to form', no one is noted as 'trained and ready to operate'.

Irregular Commandos
Of the Irregular Commandos - seven tenths of No3, No4 and No5 Commandos were ready to operate, the balance of these three units were under training. Nos 6, 7 and 8 were forming. The others were still forming.

Availability of Arms for all units was limited - in fact a shortage is very apparent.

A further parachute Commando was being considered against the background of limited training facilities. It is noted that parachute volunteers were recruited across all Commands, as opposed to each Commando generally coming from a single Command.

No12 Commando is mentioned but no analysis given

Regards
Mike

Further to my posting above, which is taken from the Public Record Office document PRO FO 83/697:

Independent Companies
The state of Independent Companies at 26 July 1940 may be considered confusing. On 27 April 1940 No 1 Independent Company embarked at Rosyth on HMS Arethusa, sailing for Mo in Norway (changing ship to RMS Orion and SS Royal Ulsterman in Scapa Flow next day). On 4 May Nos 3, 4 and 5 Independent Companies had embarked at Gourock on SS Ulster Prince, for action in Norway. No2 arrived in theatre on 14 May. These 5 units were being evacuated home by 1 June. They soon joined the other 5 Independent Companies in the UK.
Further more - No11 Independent Commando was formed on 14 June 1940 from volunteers from the other Independent Companies.
However - During his visit to to Independent Companies that had not served in Norway Dudley Clarke noted that "they had heard the first five companies were coming back from Norway and it was difficult to see what future could remain for those which had not been in action. Already rumours of disbandment had reached the ranks"

Regards
Mike