Messages posted by: Alan Orton

Hi Nic,
I was very interested to read this especially the date 10/06/1944 as one of the o/r's who was wounded was L/Sgt. J.V. Byrne, he was from 1/Gordon's and served in France in 1940 where he was wounded. He later joined No.11 (Scottish) Commando and then L Detachment Special Air Service Brigade. He was taken prisoner during March 1942 on an operation to attack aircraft at Berka and eventually ended up in Stalag Luft III. He eventually escaped and reached Sweden in July of 1943. On reaching the U.K. he joined No. 6 Commando and served in 1 Troop until he was wounded. He wrote a very interesting book;
J.V. Byrne,
The General Salutes a Soldier - With the SAS and Commandos in World War Two.
Robert Hale - London
ISBN 0 - 7090 - 2773 - 7
1986.

The whole story is well worth the read and although the book is out of print I believe you can probably get a copy from Amazon.

Alan.

Hi Graham,
they came after Layforce drawn most from this disbanded formation and were originally 5 squadrons with plans to raise others from the Dominion and Indian armies similar to the proposals for the original MEC in 1940 but again came to nothing. They disbanded after Operation Agreement in 1942. I have a document I put together entitled 'Beyond Layforce' which covers their short history. Several troops from B Squadron were for a time attached to an Armoured Div. whilst others operated with the LRDG in a similar fashion to the SAS.
Hope this will help.
Kind regards,
Alan.

Hi Sue,
the 5th Battalion of the Hampshire Regiment were part of the Territorial Army, pre war they were known as the 5/7th but when war broke out they split and became the 5th and the 7th respectively. They were part of 128 Brigade known as The Hampshire Brigade and were part of 43rd (Wessex) Division. In January 1943 they left the U.K. as part of 46th Division for Operation Torch. They suffered high casualties during the fighting and by April they were withdrawn from the line. September 1943 saw them take part in the landings at Salerno but the 5th was landed on the wrong beach. During the fighting here they suffered nearly 50% casualties and carried on in the campaign until they were relieved and sent first to Palestine and then to Egypt. The S.B.S. had their main base in Palestine so this could be when he applied for a posting to them. June saw them back in Italy until January 1945 when the 5th was sent to Greece but returned to Italy in April.
There are other versions available of the fighting at Lake Commachio although E.R. is not mentioned by name in them ( Daggers Drawn by Mike Morgan and True Stories of the Commandos by Robin Hunter, he also wrote one about theS.B.S. in his True Stories series so it may be worth checking them out at your local library.
The S.A.S. Regimental Association may hold some information on him so it could be worth writing to them enquiring, their address is online on their website.
If you follow the casualty link within Nick's earlier reply and then open the photographic request link and scroll down to www.twgpp.org and type in his name you will find his record on page 2, a picture of the grave is held in their records and a digital copy is available for £3.50 and a hard copy for £5.50.
It could be worth contacting Gavin Mortimer the author himself, I have contacted him on several occasions in the past regarding the S.A.S. and he was alway's very helpful and through his replies I was able to put quite a bit of flesh on the bones.
Hope this will you of some use to you.
Kind regards,
alan.

Could you please add my father to the list, L/Cpl. John Orton, 6 Troop, No.11(Scottish) Commando who died on the 21st October 1996.
Many thanks,
Alan.

Mike Blackman who was an Intelligence Officer with the SAS at the wars end and put together a scrap book from files and photographs that they held covering the period 1941 - 1945, Blair Mayne kept the scrapbook himself and was called by many as 'Paddy Mayne's Diary'. On his death in the 50's his brother Douglas had it and made it available to authors on request, I believe Virginia Cowles (The Phantom Major) was most likely the first one to use it. P.M.D.'s was eventually donated to the SAS Regimental Association who would let authors continue to research it, people who contacted the Association for information regarding relatives who served in the wartime SAS had there request's checked from this. It does hold some amazing information including the first Nominal Roll, Operational Instruction for Operation Squatter and escape reports from some of those who were captured during this operation, some of the info is though a bit misleading as the document for Operation No.1 shows only 24 names of those involved, David Stirling himself is not even mentioned so some of the early documents are not exactly totally accurate but this of course can be forgiven considering the circumstances.
It is I believe this scrapbook which was published as the SAS War Diary 1941 - 1945, the description of the original scrapbook is as follows

A large leather folder (17 x 12 x 4 in ) stamped CHRONIC der Gemeinde Scheeren, Kreis Neustad a.Rhge. ( Records of the Parish of Scheeren, District of Neustadtin the Rhineland

The above was replaced on the cover of the published diary with SAS War Diary 1941 - 1945 in its place, the dimensions are the same as previously mentioned.

Published to help raise funds for the welfare work undertaken by the Association, although limited in quantity this is a very important document but it's pricing leaves it out of most peoples budgets personally I would like to see it digitised and perhapt's made available on Find My Past or Ancestory UK type websites on a Pay To View basis where you can save pages relevant to your research. I for one would forego my Sunday lunch time pint of mild to access the files in this way, it would also bring in revenue for their continuation of their welfare work, until something like this happens though it looks like the pint of mild is on the menu for the forseable future,then again though the price of The Daily Telegraph perhapts a dry Sunday.
Regards,
Alan.

Hi J B,
i'm not sure but I think Leslie Tartan was for the officers trews but I think they may have used this for the cap badge backing on a tam o shanter also, possibly Government 1A or 42nd Tartan would be ok also for the cap badge backing, as for sizes I think 63mm x 63mm should fit the bill. The dark horizontal line is to be at the centre with the dark green side facing to the rear. I believe also part of the Regimental dress was a blackcock feather.
Hope this is correct and will be of some use to you.
Kind regards,
Alan.

The following all served with No.8 (Guards) Commando and subsequently lost their lives serving with L Detachment or 1 SAS.

65419 Lt. J.S. Lewes, the Welsh Guards.

2692673 Sgt. S.J. Stone, the Scots Guards.

2660354 Pte. J. Blakeney, the Coldstream Guards.

2696934 Pte. S. Bolland, the Scots Guards.

2734997 Pte. R.D. Davies, the Welsh Guards.

2615455 Pte. J.H.M. Baker, the Grenadier Guards.

Lewes was killed on operations in December 1941, Stone and Bolland were lost during Operation Squatter in November 1941.
Both Blakeney and Davies were taken prisoner on Operation Squatter and escaped from an Italian P.O.W. camp when the Italians capitulated in 1943. They returned to the U.K. in 1944 and rejoined the S.A.S. and were killed in action on the same day in April 1945.
Baker was captured by the Germans on Operation Bulbasket in France during July 1944 and was executed.

Regards,
Alan.

Hi Graham,
I have found a reference that he may have served in 2 Troop of No.8 (Guards) Commando.
Regards,
Alan.

Hi Nick,
there are still a few clouds surrounding Flight No.4 and there are two reports in existence written by survivors from the RAF crew.
Three of the crew were to die and also Sgt. Syd Stone from 7 Commando who died from his injuries.
Pct. Danny Hill, 8 (Guards) Commando was seriously injured but recovered.
I have a record that Pct Dougie Keith 11 (Scottish) Commando was lost when the POW ship he was in the Sebastiano Venier was torpedoed off the coast of Greece while in transit to Italy by a RN Submarine.
It is though a very interesting story about this flight though one that hopefully will be fully resolved.
Kind regards,
Alan.

Hi Chris,
He served in the 1st Battalion King's Own Royal Lancaster Regiment throughout the Great War.
Kind regards,
Alan.

Hi Chris,
there are a few books available which feature 7 Commando (also known as A Battalion within Layforce). Included amongst them are as follows;
H.W. Wynter - Special Forces in the Desert War 1940 - 1943
Stuart Allan - Commando Country
Robin Hunter - True Stories of the Commandos
Michael Davie - The Diaries of Evelyn Waugh
There are of course others which mention them as well
John Parker - Commandos
For a general view of the fighting on the island there are two I would recommend;
Anthony Beevor - Crete the Battle and the Resistance
Callum MacDonald - The Lost Battle Crete 1941
There is a link on this site to recordings at the IWM archive which feature men not only from 7 Commando but also others from Layforce, one of great interest is the one made by Dougie Arnold.
As for their War Diary the period from Formation until I think November 1940 is available at the National Archives I did trawl through their files on line some time ago to try to find the period until their disbandment and eventually after having no luck I emailed an enquiry and the received a reply that they also couldn't find it so i'm not sure if it exists.
There are a few websites which cover Crete but most if in remember correctly do not really go into any great detail concerning 7 Commando.
There was a documentary made called Lucky Escapes from World War 2 which included the Crete fighting so it could be worth checking it out although from what I remember of it from when I saw it on Yestereday or what ever the TV channel is called these days it mainly dealt with Laycock.

My grandfather served for a short period in the Manchester's, he was originally in the North Staffs Yeomanry before going onto the Manchester's in 1904 he was then transferred to the Kings Own until his service was up, he was recalled in 1914 and fought throughout the Great War with this regiment. I've often wondered why he was transferred.

Hope this will be of some use to you.
Kind regards,
Alan Orton.

Thanks for that I look forward to seeing it. Good luck with the impending birth of your first I hope it all goes well for you all.
I'm not personally aware of any surviving 7 Commandos but i'm sure someone out there may have some info.
Thanks again,
Kind regards,
Alan.

Hi
is there any chance that you could post a copy of the list of the captured men from 7 Commando as I would be most interested to see it with a possible view of starting a Nominal Roll for this Commando.
The men from 4 Commando joined 7 Commando just before 7 embarked for the Middle East to make up the numbers after quite a few of 7 Commando were unable to return after embarkation leave due to adverse weather conditions.
One other 4 Commando who went to 7 Commando was Charlie Cattell who later went on to become one of the ' Originals' in L Detachment, Arthur Phillips was another I believe from 7 Commando who also went on to the SAS at the beginning, he was a Royal Warwick's man so it could also be that he started in 4 Commando as well.
Regards,
Alan.

Hello George,
I had a look at a nominal roll for operation Flipper but it only consists of those men who landed and doesn't include the 30 odd troops who couldn't, Laycock's report holds nothing either.
If he did serve with No.11 then I believe he may well have been in No.9 Troop and would have been with Keyes's X Party which landed at the Litani river.
2nd Black Watch served in the Chindits so this could possibly have been the Btn. he went to, they were already in the Middle East and served in Somaliland, Crete and also during the siege of Tobruk before going on to the far East to be trained as Chindits.

Alan.

Hi Mike,
trying to piece Layforce together is a bit difficult due to as you say just snippets being on offer but the Special Forces in the Desert War 1940-1943 is a great help and a very good book indeed.
My dad once said about Layforce and i quote 'we were jiggered about' which i think aptly sums it up.
I have cobbled together an account of Layforce and the 4 Commandos involved but cobbled together is about the best description i could give on it, it contains nothing new just what is available the various books and extracts that i have from 11 Commandos war diary. 7 commandos war diary only i believe goes up to November 1940 or so the NA tells me and i've not seen 8 or 50/52's diaries either. Its really something that keeps my mind occupied as for it being a book well.. my old English teacher once wrote in his report regarding my efforts at essay's and composition as best to stick to postcards preferably short ones.
Regards,
Alan.