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Reason for a redacted Soldiers Service & Paybook (John Willis-Jones, No.1 Commando)  XML
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mekz48
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Joined: 12/08/2020 10:24:57
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We have recently found some of my grandad's military papers, it seems his service book has been redacted for some reason and his Trade On Enlistment has been redacted and changed to "STUDENT" in a different style of handwriting? Can anyone shed any light on a possible reason for this? His military records online seem to be almost non existent. He was one of the first in No.1 Commando Brigade and then became the commando trainer at the depot in Scotland. Any information would be very much appreciated, i have pics but unsure if i can post in here? *i have noticed its fine to post pics so i have attached some of the pics we have found.

[Thumb - Soldier Service Book.jpg]
 Filename Soldier Service Book.jpg [Disk] Download
 Description Redacted Service Book
 Filesize 47 Kbytes
 Downloaded:  348 time(s)

[Thumb - Enlistment Page.jpg]
 Filename Enlistment Page.jpg [Disk] Download
 Description Enlistment Page
 Filesize 271 Kbytes
 Downloaded:  355 time(s)

[Thumb - Commando Certificate.jpg]
 Filename Commando Certificate.jpg [Disk] Download
 Description No.1 Commando Certificate
 Filesize 527 Kbytes
 Downloaded:  347 time(s)

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 18/08/2020 10:29:53

mekz48
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Joined: 12/08/2020 10:24:57
Messages: 14
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.
[Thumb - No.1 Commando Scotland 1944.jpg]
 Filename No.1 Commando Scotland 1944.jpg [Disk] Download
 Description No.1 Commando 1944 Scotland
 Filesize 336 Kbytes
 Downloaded:  354 time(s)

[Thumb - Aldershot.jpg]
 Filename Aldershot.jpg [Disk] Download
 Description Aldershot 1944 Army Training
 Filesize 456 Kbytes
 Downloaded:  355 time(s)

[Thumb - S__35479579.jpg]
 Filename S__35479579.jpg [Disk] Download
 Description No.1 Commando 1944 Scotland Pic2
 Filesize 353 Kbytes
 Downloaded:  359 time(s)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 12/08/2020 10:51:01

NIC
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Hi mekz48,

The reason you cannot find his service record online is simply because it won't be there.
The only custodian of WWII Service Records is the MoD.

Sadly there are a few commercial online genealogy sites, such as Forces War Records etc who misleadingly claim they have 'World War Two genealogy collections list - which includes many completely exclusive collections, painstakingly transcribed from original sources by our team of UK based data transcribers...'

But, realistically, the only information they have is that that you feed them in you initial search...

The good news is that you can apply to the MoD for your grandfather's service records. There is an admin fee of 30 (unless your grandmother is still with us and can sign the Next of Kin form - in which case the MoD waive the fee) and you will need a copy of his death certificate ( available from Gov.UK if you don't have one.)

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/894930/20180524-request_service_details_NOK_part1_v6.2.pdf

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/869588/army_application_part2_final.pdf

Nick


Nick Collins,

Commando Association Historical Archivist & Photographer.

Proud son of Cpl Mick Collins, 5 Troop, No5 Cdo

"Truly we may say of them, when shall their glory fade?"


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NIC
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Also, can you confirm his name, I'm not sure whether Willis is a Christian name, or a hyphenated Surname: Willis-Jones...

Ta,

Nick

Nick Collins,

Commando Association Historical Archivist & Photographer.

Proud son of Cpl Mick Collins, 5 Troop, No5 Cdo

"Truly we may say of them, when shall their glory fade?"


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mekz48
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Joined: 12/08/2020 10:24:57
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Hi Nic,

Thanks for the time to reply, his first name was John and his surname was "Willis-Jones" hyphenated, however most of his military records have him listed as John Jones or J.W Jones, i have heard he also went by the nickname Jacky Jones in the No.1 Commando Unit. I located a really cool reference letter from a superior, i will post it below
mekz48
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Reference Letter
[Thumb - Letter 1.jpg]
 Filename Letter 1.jpg [Disk] Download
 Description
 Filesize 234 Kbytes
 Downloaded:  355 time(s)

[Thumb - Letter 2.jpg]
 Filename Letter 2.jpg [Disk] Download
 Description
 Filesize 271 Kbytes
 Downloaded:  356 time(s)

John M
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Hello Mekz48

I can offer a learned explanation for the redacting of info in your fathers pay-book.

My father Bob Mewett was in No 12 and No1 Cdo from early in their formation. As you can see, from the photo attached, his pay book was treated the same as your fathers.
I was lucky enough to befriend two of my fathers comrades Harry Winch and John Huntington both also of No12 and No 1 Cdo.

When I asked both the question why was this so they both recited the same answer.

On the early raids many of the men were not known personally to each other ,all being from separate Regiments of the army. So when leaving for the raid and for security reasons they would leave their pay-book at the departure venue. The pay-book would be retrieved on the soldiers return from the raid. If the pay-book was not retrieved that soldier was recorded as missing etc.(Negative Roll Call). However some men were superstitious and were not happy to leave their PB . A symbol of bad luck. So to placate these individuals the info was deleted so if captured no sensitive info was available from the book..

I cannot offer any other explanation and when I have recited this one to other WW2 Commandos it has never been refuted.

I regard both John Huntington and Harry Winch both reliable sources, as they both helped me tremendously in the research of my fathers wartime efforts.

I hope this proves useful to you.

Best regards
John M
[Thumb - 1-dads Record book.jpg]
 Filename 1-dads Record book.jpg [Disk] Download
 Description
 Filesize 313 Kbytes
 Downloaded:  353 time(s)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 12/08/2020 14:17:29




Do not speak.....unless it improves on Silence.

A good teacher opens the door.....you must enter yourself.


For Dad No 12 Commando & 4 Troop No 1 Commando
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Pete
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Hi Mekz

From your father's Commando Service Certificate your Father served in both No. 1 Commando and at the Commando Basic Training Centre. The photo of the Army PTI's gives a clue as to his role. We have the two Commando photos you posted already in our gallery. The photo titled Commando Basic Training Centre, June 1944 is not No. 1 Commando photo but of Instructors and Staff of the Training Centre. Is your father in these photos and if so can you point him out so I can add his name to each..

http://gallery.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/Commando+Training/Turneyimages3.jpg.html

http://gallery.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/Commando+Training/Turneyimages1.jpg.html

There are other photos where you might spot him in the WW2 Training gallery where the above are located. Here is a direct link to page 1 of that gallery:

http://gallery.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/Commando+Training/

We have a Lance Sergeant J.W. Jones in our No.1 Commando nominal roll so I will add Willis-Jones also a cross reference them. Have you a good photo of your father on his own at all ? If so post it on here (they have to be under 1mb in size). Any problem email it to me (see email link below).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 13/08/2020 17:25:36


Pete Rogers, son of LSgt Joe Rogers MM & nephew of TSM Ken McAllister. Both No2 Commando.
God and the Soldier, all men adore, In time of danger and not before.
When the danger is passed and all things righted, God is forgotten, and the Soldier slighted.


**** nb. I no longer monitor the pm facility ****
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Pete
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Additionally the letter of reference from Captain Tom Gordon-Hemming of No.1 Commando is excellent and answers many questions about his career as he mentions North Africa where No. 1 Commando took part in Operations. Here are some photos of the Officer who wrote that

http://gallery.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/Commando+War+Graves+Memorials+and+Plaques/Normandy/Luc+sur+Mer/Tom+Gordon+Hemming+1+and+2+cdo.jpg.html

and here

http://gallery.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/1/1+Cdo+vets/No+1+1970.jpg.html

We have others

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 13/08/2020 17:29:01


Pete Rogers, son of LSgt Joe Rogers MM & nephew of TSM Ken McAllister. Both No2 Commando.
God and the Soldier, all men adore, In time of danger and not before.
When the danger is passed and all things righted, God is forgotten, and the Soldier slighted.


**** nb. I no longer monitor the pm facility ****
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mekz48
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Joined: 12/08/2020 10:24:57
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Wow John M thank you very much for this explanation, that is awesome!!! Answers alot of questions!!

John M wrote:Hello Mekz48

I can offer a learned explanation for the redacting of info in your fathers pay-book.

My father Bob Mewett was in No 12 and No1 Cdo from early in their formation. As you can see, from the photo attached, his pay book was treated the same as your fathers.
I was lucky enough to befriend two of my fathers comrades Harry Winch and John Huntington both also of No12 and No 1 Cdo.

When I asked both the question why was this so they both recited the same answer.

On the early raids many of the men were not known personally to each other ,all being from separate Regiments of the army. So when leaving for the raid and for security reasons they would leave their pay-book at the departure venue. The pay-book would be retrieved on the soldiers return from the raid. If the pay-book was not retrieved that soldier was recorded as missing etc.(Negative Roll Call). However some men were superstitious and were not happy to leave their PB . A symbol of bad luck. So to placate these individuals the info was deleted so if captured no sensitive info was available from the book..

I cannot offer any other explanation and when I have recited this one to other WW2 Commandos it has never been refuted.

I regard both John Huntington and Harry Winch both reliable sources, as they both helped me tremendously in the research of my fathers wartime efforts.

I hope this proves useful to you.

Best regards
John M
mekz48
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Joined: 12/08/2020 10:24:57
Messages: 14
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Hi Pete, i have spotted him in the pics and i will attach them to this message, after speaking with my mother it appears his name in the military was John W Jones, he did not use the hyphenated version of (Willis-Jones) so i assume the John W Jones on the nominal roll is possibly him. I will have a hunt through the gallery and see if i can spot him

Pete wrote:Hi Mekz

From your father's Commando Service Certificate your Father served in both No. 1 Commando and at the Commando Basic Training Centre. The photo of the Army PTI's gives a clue as to his role. We have the two Commando photos you posted already in our gallery. The photo titled Commando Basic Training Centre, June 1944 is not No. 1 Commando photo but of Instructors and Staff of the Training Centre. Is your father in these photos and if so can you point him out so I can add his name to each..

http://gallery.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/Commando+Training/Turneyimages3.jpg.html

http://gallery.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/Commando+Training/Turneyimages1.jpg.html

There are other photos where you might spot him in the WW2 Training gallery where the above are located. Here is a direct link to page 1 of that gallery:

http://gallery.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/Commando+Training/

We have a Lance Sergeant J.W. Jones in our No.1 Commando nominal roll so I will add Willis-Jones also a cross reference them. Have you a good photo of your father on his own at all ? If so post it on here (they have to be under 1mb in size). Any problem email it to me (see email link below).

[Thumb - Turneyimages3.jpg]
 Filename Turneyimages3.jpg [Disk] Download
 Description
 Filesize 245 Kbytes
 Downloaded:  366 time(s)

[Thumb - Turneyimages1.jpg]
 Filename Turneyimages1.jpg [Disk] Download
 Description
 Filesize 270 Kbytes
 Downloaded:  355 time(s)

mekz48
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Joined: 12/08/2020 10:24:57
Messages: 14
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This is great! thank you so much for the info! I will keep digging and post up any additional info/pics i come across :)

Pete wrote:Additionally the letter of reference from Captain Tom Gordon-Hemming of No.1 Commando is excellent and answers many questions about his career as he mentions North Africa where No. 1 Commando took part in Operations. Here are some photos of the Officer who wrote that

http://gallery.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/Commando+War+Graves+Memorials+and+Plaques/Normandy/Luc+sur+Mer/Tom+Gordon+Hemming+1+and+2+cdo.jpg.html

and here

http://gallery.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/1/1+Cdo+vets/No+1+1970.jpg.html

We have others
Pete
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I have updated the photos at Achnacarry with your Grandfather's name and also the nominal roll for No.1 Commando. I would like to add an entry in our Gallery so do you have a good photo of your Grandfather on his own either from his military days or later in civvies. Can you also identify where in the Aldershot photo he is positioned ?
Can you please also advise me of your name so as I can add you as a source, and the date your Grandfather died. Thanks.

http://www.commandoveterans.org/John_Willis_Jones_1Commando_CBTC

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 18/08/2020 10:32:41


Pete Rogers, son of LSgt Joe Rogers MM & nephew of TSM Ken McAllister. Both No2 Commando.
God and the Soldier, all men adore, In time of danger and not before.
When the danger is passed and all things righted, God is forgotten, and the Soldier slighted.


**** nb. I no longer monitor the pm facility ****
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mekz48
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Joined: 12/08/2020 10:24:57
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Hi Pete,

Apologies for the delayed reply, in the Aldershot Photo he is in the middle row, second from the left when looking at the picture, i also came across a few more photos which i have attached to this post, also including my Grandmother, whom he met at Achnacarry, she was as far as i can gather a Private in the ATS and her name was Barbara Rees, they married in 1944.

I am John's grandson, he is my mothers father, my name is Trent Willis-Jones, He passed away 27/12/1977.

Pete wrote:I have updated the photos at Achnacarry with your Grandfather's name and also the nominal roll for No.1 Commando. I would like to add an entry in our Gallery so do you have a good photo of your Grandfather on his own either from his military days or later in civvies. Can you also identify where in the Aldershot photo he is positioned ?
Can you please also advise me of your name so as I can add you as a source, and the date your Grandfather died. Thanks.

http://www.commandoveterans.org/John_Willis_Jones_1Commando_CBTC
[Thumb - John Willis Jones Fort William Pic 2.jpg]
 Filename John Willis Jones Fort William Pic 2.jpg [Disk] Download
 Description John Fort William 2
 Filesize 344 Kbytes
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[Thumb - John Willis Jones Fort William.jpg]
 Filename John Willis Jones Fort William.jpg [Disk] Download
 Description John Fort William
 Filesize 288 Kbytes
 Downloaded:  334 time(s)

[Thumb - John Willis-Jones & Barbara Rees Wedding Photo 1944.jpg]
 Filename John Willis-Jones & Barbara Rees Wedding Photo 1944.jpg [Disk] Download
 Description John & Barbara Wedding 1944
 Filesize 256 Kbytes
 Downloaded:  333 time(s)

mekz48
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few more pics
[Thumb - John Willis Jones Achnacarry.jpg]
 Filename John Willis Jones Achnacarry.jpg [Disk] Download
 Description John Achnacarry
 Filesize 267 Kbytes
 Downloaded:  344 time(s)

[Thumb - John Willis Jones Pic 2 - Far Left.jpg]
 Filename John Willis Jones Pic 2 - Far Left.jpg [Disk] Download
 Description John far left
 Filesize 352 Kbytes
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[Thumb - John Willis Jones - Far Left.jpg]
 Filename John Willis Jones - Far Left.jpg [Disk] Download
 Description John far left - others unknown
 Filesize 291 Kbytes
 Downloaded:  344 time(s)

 
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