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GrahamCooper
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Joined: 20/08/2011 23:29:50
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Hi,
I see that the police had three intakes for cdo training at Achnacarry over the periods June 1942 and March 1943, a total of 414 started the courses.

Which regiment/s supplied their service numbers, and was it the same regiment that carried out their Admin and pay duties.

If not who.

Many thanks

Graham

By their deeds they shall be known
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John Martin
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Graham, my late uncle - Sgt Donald Martin - was part of the first intake. Once the police were released for active duty, I believe that individuals who volunteered were required to choose between the Commandos, the Guards and RAF aircrew. On completing the course at Achnacarry, he and a number of others in the intake whose surnames also began with the initial "M" - McCubbin, Madra, Mahan and possibly Marron - were assigned to what was then "C" Troop 4 CDO. I believe that the idea was to spread them thinly throughout. He was offered the choice of regiments in terms of admin and pay, and chose the Royal Norfolks because that was his county regiment. Theirs was the cap badge that he wore on his green beret. I don't believe that he had any practical involvement otherwise with that regiment, and when leaving 4 Cdo very shortly before its disbandment he returned to Norwich City Police Force. By all accounts, put his recently acquired skills to good use on noisy Saturday nights! He also went on to form and train the first underwater search and rescue team in Norfolk.

Best wishes,

John
Pete
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Hi Graham

This question has indeed arisen before on the Forum. It was answered by Ron Youngman who since 1985 had helped Henry Brown OBE with the administration of the original Commando Association.

Ron stated
" As regards the Regiment. It is true that the Police Intakes to the Commandos went direct from their Police Force to CBTC at Achnacarry. On arrival, for administration records and pay purposes, they then had to be recorded as being attached to the Commando from a Regiment. The men were asked which Regiment they wanted to be listed as with. The Regiments had no say in this whatsoever as it was purely for the reasons I have just mentioned. I am told that most simply said the nearest Regiment to where they lived, however one or two others with what might be described as a 'dry sense of humour' put down the Guards Regiments, etc. Thus began their link on paper at least with those Regiments.



Pete Rogers, son of LSgt Joe Rogers MM & nephew of TSM Ken McAllister. Both No2 Commando.
God and the Soldier, all men adore, In time of danger and not before.
When the danger is passed and all things righted, God is forgotten, and the Soldier slighted.


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GrahamCooper
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Thanks folks,the answers given explain clearly the questions asked.

Is it known how many qualified, and is there any way of identifying them,

Graham.

By their deeds they shall be known
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Pete
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Graham

I am not sure whether you have made an enquiry of the Met Police Museum but I have just responded to them on this matter with some names I have discovered. Not many and some we already know of with a few new I have discovered. Here is a slightly amended section of my reply:


http://www.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/WW2/Commando+Training/courses/

I can assist with a few names and it is certainly something your Museum may wish to follow up on. The Police Intakes were unique in that they went direct to the Commando Depot later known as the Commando Basic Training Centre (CBTC) at Achnacarry, Scotland. Throughout the war from the time of their formation in 1940 to their disbandment in 1946, all Army Commandos were volunteers from their Regiments. This was not the case with the later formed Royal Marines Commandos apart from the initial 40 RM Cdo.

The men were only attached to the Commando rather than formerly transferred. As such their pay was from their initial Regiment and they could be Returned to Unit (RTU) at any time without reason given.

Police were also volunteers. However they had no Regiment and as such they had to, at least on paper, be attached to a Regiment. The process of that occurred on their arrival at the CBTC when they were asked to name a Regiment that they could be attached to. Now most said one that was close to the area they came from, however there were some with a Coppers sense of humour, who chose the elite Guards Regiments, one an Englishman even chose the Black Watch. Thus began on paper at least their connection with these Regiments ! The Police were seen as a disciplined body of fit men who could go direct to Commando training without the need for initial military training.

The Met and Essex I believe provided the greatest number but they came from other places as well. To date we have no roll of the names of individuals on the two intakes so if you find any names at all I hope you consider sharing the information with us. I have found these Police references that may interest you in the Museum not necessarily all with your original enquiry:

http://www.open.ac.uk/Arts/history-from-police-archives/PolCit/volunteer.html

Here are a few we know of who were on the Police intakes and passed out as Commandos. It should be noted that not all on the Intakes would have passed the course. Others in the Police could volunteer for the RAF . Those below shown as No.2 Commando 5 troop were all in the same troop as my father and uncle. My father, a Lance Sergeant, kept a note book with all the details :


Ken Cook Met Police No.2 Commando 5 troop, ( still in receipt of his pension I believe)

Sydney Lamkin Met Police No.2 Commando

Jack Barlow MBE, BEM, CPM Met Police No.2 Commando

Evelyn Arthur George Cant BEM Essex Police No.2 Commando

Robert Craig Hartlepool Police No.2 Commando

Bill Humble MM Met Police (I believe) No.2 Commando 5 troop

A. Davies Staffordshire Police No.2 Commando 5 troop

L. Davies Lancashire Police No.2 Commando 5 troop

L. Coleman Somerset area Police No.2 Commando 5 troop

G. Cooper Notts/Derby area Police No.2 Commando 5 troop

J. Coulson Southport area Police No.2 Commando 5 troop

J. Craig Blackpool area Police No.2 Commando 5 troop

N. Capstick Lancaster area Police No.2 Commando 5 troop

Archibald Grant No. 3 Commando 6 troop

Duncan McCubbin later became Ch Supt with Liverpool Police No.4 Commando

Donald Hugh Martin (not sure which Police Force but could find out if you needed it) No.4 Commando

Archibald Grant No. 3 Commando 6 troop see this link: http://www.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/3/trp+photos/3_Commando_Italy_November_1943+-+owner+Ian+Grant.jpg.html

Every WW2 Commando Veteran that I have spoken with, including my father and my uncle, all spoke highly of the men from the Police Intakes. That's all the details we have so anything you might be able to add let us know.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 17/11/2012 00:14:51


Pete Rogers, son of LSgt Joe Rogers MM & nephew of TSM Ken McAllister. Both No2 Commando.
God and the Soldier, all men adore, In time of danger and not before.
When the danger is passed and all things righted, God is forgotten, and the Soldier slighted.


**** nb. I no longer monitor private messages. ****
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NIC
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Two other police officers who served with No5 Cdo:
Cpl Joe Jarvis.
L/Cpl K Strowger.

I'm afraid I do not know from which Constabulary they came or if there were any others in No5 Cdo - although I'm fairly sure there were...

Nick

Nick Collins,

Commando Association Historical Archivist & Photographer.

Proud son of Cpl Mick Collins, 5 Troop, No5 Cdo

"Truly we may say of them, when shall their glory fade?"


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John Martin
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In 4 Cdo C Troop, there was also Pte Bob Mahan. I do not know which police force he came from, but the troop list gives as his regiment "RNF" which I assume may stand for Royal Northumberland Fusiliers. According to Jimmy Dunning's splendid book about 4 Cdo, C Troop also had a policeman named Manley, but I can find no trace of him. I was also under the impression that two more members of C Troop, Gdsm Madra and Tpr Marron, too may have been part of the first police intake.
mike beckett
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I am sure you will be aware of Sergeant Stanley Bissell, who so impressed Lt Col Vaughan by his smart appearance on arrival at Achnacarry that he was soon made an instructor. I believe his parent Reg was APTC. My understanding is that he had a championship wrestling career with the Police and was a self defence instructor at Peel House before volunteering for the Commandos. He earned a black belt in judo, I think while at Peel House. A recent article by David L Kentner, published in the Royal Marines Journal 'Globe and Laurel' (Sept/Oct 2012) credits Stanley Bissell with reviewing and simplifying the Unarmed Combat and Close Combat training techniques taught at Achnacarry - an excellent example of the outstanding standard of recruits from Police Intakes.
Regards Mike (Beckett)
Any further information would be appreciated
if preferred email: [email protected]

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 25/10/2012 20:48:20

Pete
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2 more:

Private Charles Kenneth Rolfe (known as Ken ) was in 1 troop of No.6 Commando. He joined the Commando as part of one of the Police Intakes direct to Achnacarry.

Ted Spinks No.2 Commando : http://www.commandoveterans.org/cdoForum/posts/list/866.page#3546

Pete Rogers, son of LSgt Joe Rogers MM & nephew of TSM Ken McAllister. Both No2 Commando.
God and the Soldier, all men adore, In time of danger and not before.
When the danger is passed and all things righted, God is forgotten, and the Soldier slighted.


**** nb. I no longer monitor private messages. ****
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mike beckett
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Joined: 26/11/2009 22:06:38
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Just reading through this interesting 'thread' again

I believe the total intake of Police over the three courses was 425 according to the course listing on our site (rather than 414 noted by Graham):

http://www.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/WW2/Commando+Training/courses/CBTC+1942+1944+spean+copy.jpg.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1

A search on the word 'Police' also uncovers another potential police man who may be of interest, I think he is missing from the listing above

Tpr A Marron of 4 Cdo CTp -
http://www.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/main.php
I notice he is mentioned alongside Duncan McCubbin who I think is already noted above

"L/Cpl Duncan McCubbin was one of a number of the police intake in C Troop, survived the war and ultimately became a chief superintendent with Liverpool Police.
Tpr Marron, another former policeman, earned the nickname "Mirror" in house-to-house fighting in Flushing when he discharged a whole magazine from his TSG into a wardrobe mirror, having caught site of his reflection in it."

I hope these links work - Regards Mike

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 05/11/2012 17:33:42

NIC
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another police name I've come across is L/Cpl A Logan, "County Policeman from Largs."

L/Cpl Largs was in 3 Commando Brigade so, presumably served with either No1 Cdo or No5 Cdo - unless the RM Cdo recruited from the police too?

Nick

Nick Collins,

Commando Association Historical Archivist & Photographer.

Proud son of Cpl Mick Collins, 5 Troop, No5 Cdo

"Truly we may say of them, when shall their glory fade?"


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NIC
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further to me previous post, I can now say that L/Cpl Logan served with No1 Cdo.

Nick

Nick Collins,

Commando Association Historical Archivist & Photographer.

Proud son of Cpl Mick Collins, 5 Troop, No5 Cdo

"Truly we may say of them, when shall their glory fade?"


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GrahamCooper
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Joined: 20/08/2011 23:29:50
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Hi,
Thanks for all the response so far.
My list to date is just over 20 names,my request is help to confirm the serial numbers quoted agains't the names

14241610 PTE L COLEMAN 2 CDO
14241818 PTE KFT COOK 2 CDO
14241819 PTE G COOPER 2 CDO
14341680 GDM P MADRA 4 CDO SCOTS GDS
14241712 CPL R MAHAN 4 CDO R.NORTHUMBERLAND FUSILIERS
14241713 TPR A MARROW 4 CDO RAC
14241638 SGT DH MARTIN 4 CDO NORFOLK REGT
14241681 LSGT D McCUBBIN 4 CDO CAMBRIDGESHIRE REGT.

I believe the Army serial numbering system changed in 1942,if this is the case,and not knowing how the system was changed.
I am beginning to consider that the police intakes were subject of block of consecutive serial numbers.
Any thoughts please
Graham

By their deeds they shall be known
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John Martin
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Joined: 19/08/2010 16:02:05
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Graham, my troop list for "C" Troop 4 Cdo - which is on the website - gives Duncan McCubbin's number as 14241679 and his (adopted) parent regiment as the Cameronians. I knew him well, and he always wore the Cameronian's badge on his green beret at reunions. The other 4 Cdo details appear to match those on the troop list, save that it is "MARRON" and not "MARROW".
mike beckett
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Joined: 26/11/2009 22:06:38
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Further to my posting above of 25 October - the article about Stanley Bissell has been reproduced on our CVA website - the link below should find it

http://www.commandoveterans.org/cdoForum/posts/list/3663.page;jsessionid=2F6896F6B8CF0326B68EAD3194E62E57

Regards
Mike
 
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