A Commando at Dieppe: Is there a list of those involved ?

A Commando at Dieppe: Is there a list of those involved ?

My late granddad talked about Dieppe many times, but mostly in the sense he was there and it wasn't at all nice. No more than he was with some US Rangers and they didn't get much further than just touching the beach, and something about them going after the boats in the harbour.

We have a photo of him in posing in battle dress with bayonet fixed, taken just after Dieppe at his brothers house in Weymouth.

On his left sleeve above the elbow , I can make out VIII. Any idea what this means ?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 15/08/2012 22:47:03

My current theory is VIII means 8 as in 8th Royal Marine Battalion- later B and 41 Commando.
This article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/41_Commando talks about 41 Commando being based in the Isle of Wight and involved in the invasion of Sicily which fits in with the stories my granddad used to tell.

However, as he was at Dieppe, I've not found any reference to 8th Battallion being at Dieppe, so assumed he was attached to A Commando which became 40 Commando. My assumption is based on reading about A Commando at Dieppe. In this article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/40_Commando A Commando are tasked with selected tasks in the port area , but [on]landing, under well-nigh impossible conditions, suffered severe casualties. Of the 370 officers and men, 76 were lost on the beaches. My granddad would only say they were going to blow up/steal ships in the harbour and they got to the beach "near cliffs" and it was "terrible". He did't want to talk more, I could imagine why.

Hi Mark

Can you post a copy of the photo on this forum message with the insignia you describe as being on his left arm.

Regards

pete

Here you are. I just noticed the attachments button.

ex RM Commando Ken Parker pointed out to me that it looks like George is wearing a beret under his helmet.

I am wondering whether it is "VM" rather than "V111". In the Royal Marines VM indicated Vehicle Mechanic.... would this fit in with anything you knew about him?

It could be VM, but would they put vehicle mechanic on your sleeve in large letters ? Certainly he never mentioned anything about mechanics in the many decades I was lucky to know him. He was a builder after the war until he retired, and I never associated him with repairing his cars at all. Very good at clock repairs though.

What else would VM mean ? Would be interesting to know if royal marine battalions put Roman numerals on their sleeves. I have found no evidence so far.

Any comments about the picture welcome. He always said it was taken after Dieppe on leave, so around Aug/Sept 1942. The grass looks long behind him, but not sure about the plants, they seem not to have many leaves.
Of course asking somebody to remember back 70 years is probably a big ask, given I don't recall names of some people I worked with a few years ago, let alone 70 !

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 09/09/2012 15:16:00

The VIII is most likely 8th Battalion Royal Marines. We received George's RM service records and 8th Battalion is mentioned.
An update on the photograph, George's younger sister is still alive in Australia, via my mother, she maintains that George is actually posing with their older brother Bill Barnes home guard rifle, webbing and helmet. The house is still Corporation road, Weymouth, but George had not lived with the family for years, having years earlier run away to Bristol to stay with his Aunt.
Sadly George never saw his sister again, nor did she hear much about his service.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 09/09/2012 17:41:10

It was not until February 1942 that first Royal Marines Commando was formed.
Formed at Deal (from volunteers from the RM Battalions) on Valentines Day 1942 as The RM Commando, it comprised 'A', 'B' and 'X' Companies.
It became briefly known as 'A' RM Commando (12 - 18 October 1942).

Following 'A' RM Commando's terrible losses at Dieppe, the 'powers that be' brought the commando back up to strength.

They re-titled it 40 RM Commando so not to confuse the RM Commandos with their Army counterparts.

41 RM Commando was then formed on 10 October 1942, at Pembroke Dock (South Wales), from 8th Battalion RM.

By July 1943 the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 9th and 10th Battalions RM had converted to 42, 43, 44, 45, 46 and 47 RM Commando respectively.

The 7th Battalion RM followed suit as 48 RM Commando in February 1944.

Nick

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 09/09/2012 18:13:24

George's Royal Marine records show

8 Bn Commenced HBL 8 Bn 12/5/194
RM Commandos T/A RM Commandos A/40 from 8th Bn 12/10/1942

Later on 5/11/1942 he transfers to 41 Commando.

HBL= home base ledger (personnel within the U.K.)

and

HBL is HBLRMTG- home base ledger royal marines training group which appears to be a holding unit for non posted personel.

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/service-records/41056-more-info-now-confused.html

George claimed he was at Dieppe, could it be he was attached to the A Commando which he later gets posted to rather than the 41 his 8th Btn would suggest ?

I will post up the RM documents for geroge in a new thread.

The first RM Cdo was formed purely from volunteers from the other RM Battalions - just like the Army Cdos had.

Subsequent RM Cdos - 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46 and 47 were simply the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 9th and 10th Battalions RM respectively that converted, as a battalion, to become RM Cdos.

The 7th Battalion RM converted to 48 RM Commando in February 1944.

It is feasible that George, in 8th Battalion Royal Marines, volunteered for 'special service' and, as such, joined 'A' RM Cdo...

Then when his old battion became 41 RM Cdo he may have asked to transfer back to join his old 8th Bn mates?

RMTG was as you say Royal Marine Training Group, but there was:

RMTG (D) - the D standing for Devon. RMTG(D) was at Exton but had been previously known as RMRD (Royal Marine Reserve Depot).

RMTG (W) - the W standing for Wales.
as far as I know there were at least 4 RMTD (Royal Marine Training Depots) in the RMTG (W)

HQ RMTG (W) was at Towyn.
the three listed below were for the training of Landing Craft Crews

Gibraltar Camp, Llanegryn - Basic Seamanship
Burma Camp, Llwyngwril - Seamanship, Navigation etc
Crete Camp, Barmouth - Practical Handling of Landing Craft

nick

Really just as a footnote - some Royal Marines enrolled into Army Commandos. I was in touch with one veteran (Sgt (PTI) Tom Sharpley) who joined No3 Cdo in May 1942, just after the first RM 'A' Commando was formed (Feb 1942). He was on security duties in Liverpool at Gladstone Dock, from Jan 1941 to Jan 1942, then being posted to 5th Bn RM. This timing is interesting, and COULD mean he did not see the earlier request for RM Volunteers to form an RM Commando (possibly sent at the time prior to posting to 5th RM Bn.) - certainly, questioned by me afterwards, Tom said he had never seen such a request.
Obviously Other Royal Marines served in Army Commandos prior to formation of distinct RM Commandos. Tom served most of the war at Holding Operational Commando as a PTI. However, he did take part in the Normandy Landings - attached (as part of a composite group) to No.41 (RM) Commando. Sadly, Tom passed away quite recently.

Interesting stuff. Holding Operational Commandos in HOC in Wrexham ? My late granddad commented that they needed everybody they could get for Normandy

Do Tom's relatives know about this site, and do they have any pictures etc. they could post up, in memory of Tom and his comrades, and to help younger generations remember them ?

I got the impression from my granddad that people were moved around a lot as needed. On my granddad's transfer to the Army, he said it was due to his flat feet.
This is pure speculation, but maybe the Army Commandos at that point were less strict and he volunteered for them, with his previous Commando experience they snapped him up ? His army record shows medical A1 at the point
he transferred. I vaguely recall him saying he went to Achnacarry twice, might the 2nd time have been to test his fitness on transferring to Army Commandos ?

All speculation. Shame he would never write anything down, or give a timeline.

Related to this thread, I've started to post up the Royal Marines documents I have for George.
http://www.commandoveterans.org/cdoForum/posts/list/3577.page