A curious FS knife.....worth a look SOE Suicide Knife

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 17/06/2012 19:47:52

Hi All

A very curious FS.

It is of 2nd pattern specs but has a screw thread mid hilt which conceals a compartment for secreting something.

My first thoughts ......cyanide pill........SOE etc.

The manufacture is of high quality and the thread is very precise ..........you woudn't know it was there.

It is marked top of CG .......'42' on left .......'JP' on right.

Any ideas?

Regs John M

Hi John

I spoke to Roy a while back about these knives who runs:
http://www.wilkinsonfscollection.com/

It is thought they might be a 'common' made up item I'm afraid

Cheers
Paul

Hi Paul

Yes I know there is some discussion about them.

The JP is the mark of John Paisley of Glasgow. Ron Flook has done quite a bit of research into him and his firm.

There is a lot of confusion...........but the quality is excellent and the SOE did carry such things..........I think the jury is out still on this one.

The knife has obvious age and looks authentic enough when compared to my 2nds .........

Nice to have it in my collection.........just for the curiosity value.

Best regards

John

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 18/06/2012 20:43:31

I've never seen one of these before.

Excellent curiosity value as you say John.

Possibly for the secretion of an escape map maybe.

Rgds

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 19/06/2012 00:44:26

Hi Geoff

I had read of them but never actually seen one until this week-end.........it is a most interesting knife.

Everything seems right about it...........it seems to have been manufactured for a specific purpose......perhaps a custom knife for an operative.........the thread and compartment appears to be as old as the rest of the knife..........by that I mean it cant have been added as an after thought or an addition later.

The hilt an the blade shows the same amount of ageing.......so they belong together and have not been cobbled together.

The MFG's 'JP' seem also to be full of mystique and clouded in mist.........typical SOE.

This is going to give me long hours of research.

Regards

John

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 19/06/2012 11:56:49

According to Roy these first came to market in the 1960s, hence they are now showing signs of age related wear.

There is of course a fundamental flaw in the design that if you were captured the first thing they would do is disarm you, so whatever was in there you won't have it! I think I'd rely on the escape map stitched into my BD collar!! :wink:

It will be interesting to see if further research turns anything concrete up

Cheers
Paul

Hi all

Interesting link:

http://www.fightingknives.info/tabid/841/ProductID/179/Default.aspx

The mystery deepens :D

An enigma

regards

john

Nice one John

Intriguing indeed!

cheers
Paul

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 20/06/2012 18:03:08

Hi Paul

The book:

Fairbairn-Sykes Commando Daggers by Leroy Thompson mentions these very knives.

Apparently purchased by members of X troop 10 IA Commando.

The plot thickens.

Best regards

John

A lovely acquisition John!

I have seen images only of a few examples of these types of FS knives before and some are attributed to the legendary John Paisley.

There has indeed been a lot of controversy about Paisley. Some collectors are convinced that his blades were manufactured in the US or Canada in the '70's and sold with the legend of wartime provenance. Here is one main article that attempts to discredit Paisley's authenticity - http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/flook.htm

I have been keen to chase any evidence of Paisley and his knives being authentic. The above article tries to dismiss him largely because the only John Paisley mentioned in wartime Glasgow is a jeweller and not a cutler. The accounts of him originally being a dirk and sgian dubh maker in my mind would confirm this to be the same man, as dirks and sgian dubhs in Scotland have been made according to mid - late C19th Victorian styles since that time, which are not made by cutlers, but by silversmiths or jewellers due to the extensive amount of decorative etching/engraving/chasing and stone-setting on silver grip and scabbard mounts.

Blades are typically either purchased from cutlers or even bought in/imported.

There is also the potential evidence that several JP marked knives have come from the collection of Cpt. Peter Mason. I have attempted to contact Cpt. Mason directly to confirm where and when he may have originally purchased or acquired these but without success to date.

The legend accompanying these knives is that the hollow grip was to accommodate a cyanide pill and they are often referred to as "suicide knives" It would be equally believable and practical for a length of wire for garotting to be carried inside as this was a technique originally taught and there are existing examples of FS knives that have been adapted for having such a wire wrapped around the grip.

I have also been keen to replicate this type of knife but have been reluctant to do so unless further evidence of authenticity can be confirmed.

Congratulations on such a rare find. I would be very keen to have a closer look at this if possible in the near future.

Still on the case of JP and shall keep you updated with any progress.

I know where there's an indentical one for sale if you're interested Mac, cheaper than a orignal second pattern! PM me if and I'll give you the dealer's details if you like.
cheers
Belly

Thanks Paul & Mac

This is the most interesting piece that I have come across and certainly sits nicely in my collection.

As a Master Swordsmith Mac I appreciate your input greatly.........your info about Paisley is very interesting indeed.(more so to me as I myself am a retired Jeweller).

Mac you are more than welcome to inspect this knife in the flesh. I am travelling up to Spean Bridge in the not to distant future and we can arrange a meeting then if you like.

I'll keep you informed.

Best regards both

john M

I shall do Belly and thanks for the heads-up!

It would be a pleasure to meet and study the knife John. Do let me know when you are heading North and I'll be happy to meet.

Hopefully we can shed some more collective light on these wee rarities.

Another John Paisley researcher......

I am fresh on the trail but not a lot to add that hasn't already been published. It is very intriguing that an already legendary topic that encompasses WWII, Commandos, SOE and the FS dagger has this added mystery simmering away.

I am based not far from Glasgow so at least I can easily get out in the city and get the research done the old school way. I suspect this will not be resolved by online resources.

Thanks Glasowbiz
Any more info would be most welcome.
Its an ongoing mystery. Paul MacDonald has had a look at the knife and was researching further but as yet nothing new has been unearthed.
Please post any info here...and good luck.
Best regards

John M