New Military Maritime History Revealed

yes it is a good book steve ...there was a later one published just last year which covers the second mission with the sleeping beauties in more detail .

Its called Kill the Tiger and was wriiten by peter thomopson and robert macklin .I am part way through it but it appears Lyons was recommended for the VC by the Governor of Australia and the Australian Prime minister Curton ,but evidently people not friendly to Lyon got it downgraded.

The book hints at a betrayal of operation rimau...i will pm you with by who when i finish it

all the best

steve

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 09/03/2009 19:20:01

Hi

Ref your mention of 'MSC' or Sleeping Beauties' ...(which covers the second mission with the sleeping beauties in more detail )....

If you want to know the best story and information to date on the 'Sleeping Beauty' - that is to say what, when, how etc - the best unrivalled account is within
'The Cockleshell Canoes' published by Amberley at £9.99

The information is within the chapter 'The canoe that was made to sink' and another chapter entitled 'The Talented Few' gives you all the information about the designer of the MSC.
Faultless and new historical information to boot!

Note these reviews just in...

This from Prof. Eric Grove - Review in Navy News May 2009.

' this volume really is one of the most original, interesting and informative to have appeared recently'

'an excellent and ground breaking work', 'described in great detail'.

From 'The Croaker' April 2009 issue by M.J.A.

'Clarity of delivery'.

'Rees writes well and his narrative flows'

'a stimulating and revealing tract'

'fascinating and detailed accounts'

Globe and Laurel - March - April 2009 issue by G.A.D

'remarkable book',
' this great and important military and maritime story - which he tells very well',
'good looking and man sized book' with 'stunning photographs'

ON LINE VIEW of article in Navy NEWS...

http://content.yudu.com/A178mx/navynewsmay09/resources/index.htm?referrerUrl=http://www.navynews.co.uk/

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 11/02/2011 20:33:11

This conversation thread has been transferred here from a forum where it had gone off track as far as subject matter. Posted here as a book by the same author is mentioned

Pete

Hi Kewdos

Thank you for pointing this out and it has been "sorted". Do you have any photos for our gallery of the canoes that were used in Operation Frankton or Checkmate that you would like to share with us ?

Regards

Pete

10/02/2011 20:36:40
kewdos

Hi

Strangely enough I have ... however as a swap I would ask, as a condition, that the enclosed book cover pic supplied be added as well as the canoe pics. These are copyrighted; so you can appreciate the request that some attribution is accorded.

The photos supplied are from my latest publication/ book 'Cockleshell Heroes -The Final Witness', Quentin Rees ISBN 9781848688612 Amberley 01285 760030 DEC 2010... 'HEROES' BOOK

This contains c. 40% NEW information along with many letters written some by the men who died. AND LOTS lots more. German archive material show exactly what happened when they decided to execute the first two men captured. This info is from the officer who was tasked with the detail - its very descriptive. There are 7 stories wrapped up in the Cockleshell Heroes story. This is a story that you might be familiar with but NOT a story that you will have read before.

Cockleshell Heroes: The Truth At Last - Telegraph -28 Oct 2010 ... In his new book, Cockleshell Heroes ? The Final Witness, Quentin Rees has unearthed fresh information about the fate of those captured. ...
www.telegraph.co.uk/.../Cockleshell-Heroes-the-truth-at-last.html

IF you want to know the whole truth and the complete story this is the only book you'll ever need, no other book even comes close.
The information contained within might upset some but it is the truth; all evidenced.

For a review suggest the latest Feb edition of the Globe and Laurel mag.

The Cockleshell Canoes ISBN 978-1848680654 also published by Amberley will give everything you need concerning all wartime canoes there use and who used them. 'CANOES' BOOK

REF THE CANOE PART OF THE question, ref Checkmate... the canoes used on this event had to be Mk 1**; the explanation is in the 'CANOES' book whilst the Frakton canoes were the Mk 2 type ( the irst to be designated with the 'cockle' code name ( the Mk 1** came AFTER the Mk 2). The 'cockle' name came via Fred Goatley from the Isle of Wight; the designer of the Mark2 (and the three man version the M2** ( two Star). No Hasler did not design this canoe Goatley did nearly a year BEFORE Hasler arrived at the CODC .

For repetition both of these canoes ( Mk2 and Mk2**) were BOTH FLAT BOTTOMED CANOES) their collapsibility was along their (15ft and 7ft 4 inch respectively) length... VERTICALLY to less that 7 inches. Only six of these remain known only three are on display (one that I believe is 'CACHALOT' , see either book, is at the Combined Military Services Museum at Marldon in Chelmsford, Essex. Tel: 01621 841826 link http://www.cmsm.co.uk/.

The only privately owned Mk 2 is on display at the National Maritime Museum in FALMOUTH ( YOU WILL GET TO SE THIS ON TV SOON)

You might also like to know that a memorial to the Cockleshell Heroes and three Frenchmen will be dedicated o March 31st 2011 at the Pointe de grave in France (80k) Portland Stone shipped across. IT WILL BE A BIG EVENT. see travel discount with Brittany ferries..
There is a single reservation line for this offer, via Sarah Hall, on 0871 244 0411, quoting ?Frankton Memorial Dedication Discount?.
I have been asked to provide the Memorial booklet due out post event fo obvious reasons.
Someone might like to cut paste to other sections for interest.

Hope helps.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q

10/02/2011 20:40:23
kewdos

THEY ALL DID THEIR BEST.... I HAVE DONE MINE.

Q

10/02/2011 23:57:01
Pete

Hi again

Whilst I appreciate the offer of the two pictures posting the cover front and back of books is not something that we have ever been asked to do before on any photo. We can put written credits in as to books or where the photo comes from. As you have already on more than one occasion used our forum to freely place the information about your books would this not be sufficient.

Regards

Pete

11/02/2011 13:45:32

kewdos
have deleted pics but can reinstate if accord can be reached.

if used elsewhere please advise and assure of either dletion or accord.
ta

Q

11/02/2011 14:14:05
kewdos
For some reason this didnt post!

redone follows from rply b4 last

Hi

Whilst hat might ordinarily be the case I have a publisher to satisfy and they will not allow something being used under copyright without getting some obvious advertisement, hence the front cover prerequisite.

If you think this is not a good idea for your site then we cannot be in accord and the pictures would have to be deleted.

Please advise.

regards
Q
I do believe that my input to the site has been invaluable and without my detailed researches history would not be as accurate.

11/02/2011 20:02:28
Pete

Hi again

That is a shame but at least it makes things clear. You forgot to delete the front and rear cover of your book when you deleted the photos so I have deleted it for you. As regards your comment :
if used elsewhere please advise and assure of either deletion or accord

You can rest easy, the CVA has not posted your 2 photos anywhere else on our website.

Regards

Pete

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I shall be leased to report on the memorial dedication event for you and supply some pics... as said I have been asked to produce the memorial booklet.. high on photos short on text... all info taken from my book anyway...

If I can be of any help let me know...

There is an awful lot about ww2 canoes and the frankton raid that has not been known about before... its about time this was addressed. The HEROES book is all about PEOPLE and what they did esp. he 13 men that were chosen for the raid... you get to know them at last.

Photos... Should I forget remind me c.end April

regards to all :)

An interesting observation on a Klepper canoe,

kewdos
Forum Lance Corporal

Joined: 14/02/2009 20:49:53
Messages: 15
Offline
Hi I fond this pic of a canoe .. it was labelled a klepper canoe.

I cannot remember if it was attached to 'Chckmate' link

This canoe cannot be a klepper ( wartime/germany etc etc)
THE CAnoe is unquestionablya Cockle Mark 1 ** ( 2 Star).

THese were extremely good canoes and lasted into the 50's
for the sake of istory hought to correct the klepper error.
NO WW2 canoes would have been Kleppers..

if someone cold sort this...

Why can it not be a Klepper?

It is understood that Johann Klepper had produced canoes for a number of years prior to WWII, even used on Artic and Antartic expeditions. So therefore could perhaps be regarded as a 'proven' canoe for Norwegian waters.

Just because it was of German origin did not stop it being used by 14 Commando.
It would be futile to suggest that no Kleppers existed outside of Germany at the start of WWII!

Kleppers/Folboats both of German origin?

Rover

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 01/04/2011 20:32:41

Hi Rover,
Welcome to the CVA.
Although not an expert in the field of folding kayaks, I have to agree that both Folboats & Klepper were in production well before the WWII and it would be very naive to suggest that Kleppers weren't used outside Germany or that British kayakers did not use them before WWII.

Spectacular feats have been accomplished with Klepper Folding Kayaks such as:
The Germany-India expedition 1923 by Karl Schott
The North Pole expedition 1926 by Roald Amundson
The First Atlantic Crossing in 1928 by Captian Romer

and Folbot claim that they've been continuously hand-making folding kayaks since 1933

Nick

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 23/08/2011 16:45:30

Hi everyone,

First post here at CVF. I find military kayaks fascinating and I will most certainly be picking up a copy of Quentin's book about British Military Canoes along with a new book by John Hoehn called "Commando Kayak" which deals with the development and use of the Australian designed and manufactured Mk III folboat.

I just stumbled across this thread and noticed all the angst about different types of folding kayaks used by Australian SF in WWII.

Here's the skinny on the types used by Z Special Unit / Services Reconnaissance Department / Special Operations Australia during operations such as Jaywick (successful raid on Singapore Harbour in 1944) and Rimau (unsuccessful raid on Singapore Harbour in 1943). In addition to the operational craft, there were different folding kayaks used during training as well. Other craft such as the various submersibles (MSC, Welman, Welfreighter) are a different story, so I won't cover them here. However, if you're interested in these weird and wonderful machines, check out www.welfreighter.info.

The kayaks:

Folbot -

This was a civvy kayak used by Z Special mainly for training. Although called a Folbot, it appears that a variety of civilian models from Tyne to Klepper were used with Folbot being a generic term. Double and single seaters were used during training for the Jaywick raid at X Training camp on the Hawkesbury River in NSW, but they were found to be very fragile. Both the skin and the frame were susceptible to damage due to the rocky shoreline of the training area. Despite this, they were used to great effect as Davidson and co developed Z's folboat tactics.

Here's what the "literature" has to say about the Folbot:

"This may be considered a well-made craft but the materials used are sometimes faulty and every part should be minutely inspected and tested before a craft is passed for operation."

American Kayak -

This one WAS a Folbot brand kayak. These were used in training at Fraser Island and Careening Bay but did not see operational service.

Here's what the "literature" has to say about the American Kayak:

"This is a well thought-out and sturdy craft of extremely good lines and paddles exceptionally well. She is a good weight carrier with overhangs and flare at bow and stern which should make her a good performer in surf in her class. A better sea boat than the Folbot, she is not so heavy as the Mark I**."

British Mk I** canoe -

These were purposely designed as a military craft. They had a sturdier wooden frame than the Folbot or the American Kayak, and had a laminated skin made of layers of rubber and canvas with a khaki proofed linen deck and spray skirt. One important feature of the Mk I** was the inflatable sponsons which fitted into 10 foot long pockets fitted the outer hull above the waterline. These, along with the triangular inflatable flotation bags inside the bow and stern made the Mk I** almost unsinkable.

In British service, the Mk I** was usually paddled with dual paddles like a modern day kayak. Z Special Unit had rejected the use of these paddles as they were found to be fragile in the tropics and the paddling technique was considered to be less than stealthy - they were noisy (mainly from water dripping) and the phosphorescence at night was seen to be a compromise hazard. Z used these craft with Australian single paddles and found the going difficult because the paddle strokes (a-la Canadian canoe) were interfered with by the inflatable sponsons. Rather than just remove the sponsons or leave them deflated, the Z head shed decided it would be better if they had a whole new craft built to specifications... (cont.)

The Folboat MkIII (Aust) -

The design for this craft was derived from civilian Folbots (generic term) and was developed independently from the UK military canoes. Initially designed and manufactured by Swiss émigré Walter Hohn to an initial military specification, Hohn's design was later refined by the contracted manufacturer Hedley's Pty Ltd and by the Z Special technical directorate, who modded it with everything from outboard motors to keels.

It is interesting to note that Lieut Donald Davidson, upon receiving four MK III folboats before embarking from Exmouth Gulf on operation Jaywick, was bitterly disappointed with them.

He wrote:

"On arrival here the other day we found 4 of the latest model canoes awaiting us. I have never been so disappointed in my life as I was in them. It took six of us one and three-quarter days to assemble them. Very little fitted. A great amount of carpentry work was necessary. Each skin was different from the next, and consequently each frame had to be made to fit its skin. It is quite obvious that they were never assembled by the manufacturers prior to delivery. Even the workmanship put into them is shoddy..."

Bloody whingeing Poms.

Davidson's letter was dated 1SEP1943, so it's probable that he received a bad batch of some of the early Hedley's built folboats. The letter goes on to recount how on hearing of the plan to acquire some new folboats, Davidson had submitted a whole host of his own specifications based on his vast experience with pre-war kayaking in the tropics and on lessons learned during training in NSW. All of his suggestions were ignored. Ivan Lyon on the other hand was wrapt. Davidson's letter goes on to say -

"Lyon wants me to add that, disappointed as I am with the result produced, the canoes are infinitely better than our previous ones, and he is quite content to take on the world in them. So am I, far as they fall short of my ideal."

The Folboat was a three seater, although it was usually used with just two occupants plus stores. It had a five-ply rubber and canvas skin which covered most of the deck area as well. The decking material was proofed khaki light canvas. The folboat was used extensively in training and was the standard issue Z Special Unit kayak used on operations. It was used on Operation Jaywick, Operation Rimau and many other ops from East Timor to Borneo. It was also evaluated by the Australian Army's Independent Companies (Commandos) and was accepted for limited coastal and riverine reconnaissance work in New Guinea. There are even reports of Australian coastwatchers using the MKIII Folboat.

The MKIII folboat served Australia well and at the end of the war, along with the British MKI** canoes still on charge, they were auctioned off for civilian use. For the story of the latest of the MKIII folboats to be discovered and restored, see http://maroondah-leader.whereilive.com.au/news/story/war-relic-found-in-ringwood/

craigab,

You may care to read this thread regarding military canoes.

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?4529-War-kayak-used-by-Royal-Marine-commandos

Rover

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 08/10/2017 17:07:31

craigab wrote:Hi everyone,

First post here at CVF. I find military kayaks fascinating and I will most certainly be picking up a copy of Quentin's book about British Military Canoes along with a new book by John Hoehn called "Commando Kayak" which deals with the development and use of the Australian designed and manufactured Mk III folboat.

I just stumbled across this thread and noticed all the angst about different types of folding kayaks used by Australian SF in WWII.

Here's the skinny on the types used by Z Special Unit / Services Reconnaissance Department / Special Operations Australia during operations such as Jaywick (successful raid on Singapore Harbour in 1944) and Rimau (unsuccessful raid on Singapore Harbour in 1943). In addition to the operational craft, there were different folding kayaks used during training as well. Other craft such as the various submersibles (MSC, Welman, Welfreighter) are a different story, so I won't cover them here. However, if you're interested in these weird and wonderful machines, check out www.welfreighter.info.

The kayaks:

Folboat -

Walter Hoehn made the non-military double and single seaters which were used during training for the Jaywick raid at X Training camp on the Hawkesbury River in NSW, but they were found to be very fragile. Both the skin and the frame were susceptible to damage due to the rocky shoreline of the training area. Despite this, they were used to great effect as Davidson and co developed Z's folboat tactics. This lead to Hoehn receiving a military order for an improved version which ultiately led to his MKIII design.

Here's what the "literature" has to say about Non-Australian Folboats:

"These may be considered a well-made craft but the materials used are sometimes faulty and every part should be minutely inspected and tested before a craft is passed for operation."

Australian kayak built by Hohn (see picture; this is NOT an American kayak !):
These were used in training at Fraser Island and Careening Bay. Used in trials at Cairns and New Guinea, but did not see operational service. Only later versions developed by Hoehn were used by Australian commandos in covert ops. Reference National Australian Archives.

Here's what the "literature" has to say about the American Kayak:

"This is a well thought-out and sturdy craft of extremely good lines and paddles exceptionally well. She is a good weight carrier with overhangs and flare at bow and stern which should make her a good performer in surf in her class. A better sea boat than the Folbot, she is not so heavy as the Mark I**."

British Mk I** canoe -

These were purposely designed as a military craft. They had a sturdier wooden frame than the Folbot or the American Kayak, and had a laminated skin made of layers of rubber and canvas with a khaki proofed linen deck and spray skirt. One important feature of the Mk I** was the inflatable sponsons which fitted into 10 foot long pockets fitted the outer hull above the waterline. These, along with the triangular inflatable flotation bags inside the bow and stern made the Mk I** almost unsinkable.

In British service, the Mk I** was usually paddled with dual paddles like a modern day kayak. Z Special Unit had rejected the use of these paddles as they were found to be fragile in the tropics and the paddling technique was considered to be less than stealthy - they were noisy (mainly from water dripping) and the phosphorescence at night was seen to be a compromise hazard. Z used these craft with Australian single paddles and found the going difficult because the paddle strokes (a-la Canadian canoe) were interfered with by the inflatable sponsons. Rather than just remove the sponsons or leave them deflated, the Z head shed decided it would be better if they had a whole new craft built to specifications... (cont.)

Hi,
My name is John Hoehn, son of the inventor of the Australian folboat (pat 117779) Walter Hohn (Hoehn in English) who introduced them to Oz in 1928. During the Pacific war, the Oz army ordered a total of 1024 (National Archives documented and reproduced in my book Commando Kayak), which deals with their development and use during WWII.

Some apsects of Craigab's posting are incorrect. It is well documented that the 4 folboats Davidson complained about were BRITISH, not Oz built. They were specially flown out from England for Op Jaywick. Craigab also says "...its probable he (Davidson) received a bad batch of...Hedley's built folboats". This is INCORRECT. May I suggest he research the topic thoroughly before posting and also refer to National Archives of Australia documentation for proof.

The Australian MKIII folboat, based on my father's design and patent, was so well regarded by Australian commandos and top brass that they enjoyed the longest run of any type during and after the war. For more info go to hirschbooks.net or ozatwar.com/hoehn, or just type into your search engine; 'commando kayak john hoehn'.

my grandfather walter hebbs served in RME 395 detachment MNBDO and was awarded the distinguished conduct medal according to his demob papers he served from 1939 -45 was wondering if anyone has any information as its very thin on the ground at the moment
info we do have is INDIA ,BURMA possibly MALAYA
would love to know what medals he would have earned and if anyone can find out how he came to earn the distinguished conduct medal
kind regards
steve

steve/hebbs wrote:my grandfather walter hebbs served in RME 395 detachment MNBDO and was awarded the distinguished conduct medal according to his demob papers he served from 1939 -45 was wondering if anyone has any information as its very thin on the ground at the moment
info we do have is INDIA ,BURMA possibly MALAYA
would love to know what medals he would have earned and if anyone can find out how he came to earn the distinguished conduct medal
kind regards
steve

STEVE

Do you mean 385 detachment? if so can assist
Q

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 02/04/2015 10:13:52

craigab wrote:Hi everyone,

First post here at CVF. I find military kayaks fascinating and I will most certainly be picking up a copy of Quentin's book about British Military Canoes along with a new book by John Hoehn called "Commando Kayak" which deals with the development and use of the Australian designed and manufactured Mk III folboat.

I just stumbled across this thread and noticed all the angst about different types of folding kayaks used by Australian SF in WWII.

Here's the skinny on the types used by Z Special Unit / Services Reconnaissance Department / Special Operations Australia during operations such as Jaywick (successful raid on Singapore Harbour in 1944) and Rimau (unsuccessful raid on Singapore Harbour in 1943) which used Australian built MKIII folboats bult by Hohn (see National Australian Archives, bibliography reference in book: Commando Kayak. In addition to the operational craft, there were different folding kayaks used during training as well. Other craft such as the various submersibles (MSC, Welman, Welfreighter) are a different story, so I won't cover them here. However, if you're interested in these weird and wonderful machines, check out www.welfreighter.info.

The kayaks:

Folbot -

This was a civvy kayak used by Z Special mainly for training. Although called a Folbot, it appears that a variety of civilian models from Tyne to Klepper were used with Folbot being a generic term. Very early Australian Hohn double and single seaters were used during training for the Jaywick raid at X Training camp on the Hawkesbury River in NSW, but they were found to be very fragile. Both the skin and the frame were susceptible to damage due to the rocky shoreline of the training area. Despite this, they were used to great effect as Davidson and co developed Z's folboat tactics. To verify, see bibliography of National Archives Australia in book: Commando Kayak

Here's what the "literature" has to say about the Folbot:

"This may be considered a well-made craft but the materials used are sometimes faulty and every part should be minutely inspected and tested before a craft is passed for operation."

Photo here is an early Australian Hohn folboat, army designation 'Kayak Type'. Photo verified by Lt. Col. Hoare.

This is one of my dad?s early folboats supplied to Z Unit 1942. Photo taken at Fraser Island training camp showing Lt. Col. Hoare, Australian Defence Deputy Chief at rear & Maj. Moneypenny, chief instructor, FCS. who was demonstrating kneeling position to relieve stress on legs for long hauls. I met Hoare at dad?s folboat factory in 1947. See book Commando Kayak.

Here's what the "literature" has to say about American Kayaks:

"This is a well thought-out and sturdy craft of extremely good lines and paddles exceptionally well. She is a good weight carrier with overhangs and flare at bow and stern which should make her a good performer in surf in her class. A better sea boat than the Folbot, she is not so heavy as the Mark I**."

British Mk I** canoe -

These were purposely designed as a military craft. They had a sturdier wooden frame than the Folbot or the American Kayak, and had a laminated skin made of layers of rubber and canvas with a khaki proofed linen deck and spray skirt. One important feature of the Mk I** was the inflatable sponsons which fitted into 10 foot long pockets fitted the outer hull above the waterline. These, along with the triangular inflatable flotation bags inside the bow and stern made the Mk I** almost unsinkable.

In British service, the Mk I** was usually paddled with dual paddles like a modern day kayak. Z Special Unit had rejected the use of these paddles as they were found to be fragile in the tropics and the paddling technique was considered to be less than stealthy - they were noisy (mainly from water dripping) and the phosphorescence at night was seen to be a compromise hazard. Z used these craft with Australian single paddles and found the going difficult because the paddle strokes (a-la Canadian canoe) were interfered with by the inflatable sponsons. Rather than just remove the sponsons or leave them deflated, the Z head shed decided it would be better if they had a whole new craft built to specifications... (cont.)

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 22/03/2021 09:55:15

The text for the photograph shown is false, as no U.S.folboats were available.
The actual folboat here is a Hoehn non-military sports model
being tested here by Major Moneypenny and Col. Hoare for 'Jaywick' use.
The folboats for the Jaywick plan used different makes.
There was a severe shortage of them in Australia at the start of the Pacific War,
A search by Military Command revealed only those made by Walter Hoehn in Alphington, Melbourne.
His remaining 2, a single and a double seater demonstration models being left over from a batch for sports use.
After testing on the local river, they were seconded by Colonel Mott of ISD and sent to the secret 'Camp X'
Commando training camp on the North shore of Sydney Harbour.
Actual manufacture of folboats then re-started with the 'Folboat- Kayak Type', then the Mk.III,
on orders issued by the Department of Munitions, the first of these were sent to the Cairns training centre.
There are numerous memos and letters by Military Command documented in the National Archives of Australia,
NAA MP742/1-305/9/99 which confirm the above information.
Although previously designated 'Secret', they are now available to be viewed.