Can anyone identify this piece of kit?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 15/10/2020 10:32:26

The following piece of kit was left with the effects of a former member of No. 5 Commando in WW2.

It has a "V" mark which might be the unit designation 5, bit there doesn't seem to be an MOD/Pusser mark. Therefore it might not have been regular issue, which would hardly have been unusual I suspect. It is a solid chunk of brass and measures approximately 4" x 2" x 1/2".

Any information, suggestions etc would be most welcome.

ps It has been donated to the Museum in Fort William.

A tricky one looks like some kind of early Figure Eight Belay Device

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 16/10/2020 00:05:19

My first thought, and that of others Belly. But this was dismissed by a former ML1/RM because it is made of brass, a relatively soft metal, and not up to the strains and pressure that would be required. That said, this was owned ny a former wartime commando, (No. 5), and such considerations might well have not been realised or considered at the time.

My apologies too, I should have mentioned earlier, there is a small 'gate' in the central section thus;

Hi pocketslint (sorry I don't know your given name)

I would go with the figure 8 belay too - especially now you've pointed out the swivel gate which would allows the rope to be inserted or removed quickly and without the tedious threading the whole length.
That it is made of brass probably is the reason that it looks as if a rope has worn the holes and made them more pear shaped than circular...

I would suggest the the 'v' was a size rather than a unit ID.

May I ask who the No.5 commandos is/was?

Nick

Hi Nic, it belonged to S/Sgt Syd (Jimmy) Shadbolt Royal Fusiliers and 5 Commando.

The following adds some more detail and is an interesting read in itself.

https://www.obantimes.co.uk/2020/10/08/fort-museum-receives-largest-ever-single-donation-of-commando-artefacts/

It seems to me to be over engineered for a figure of 8 belay with no hole for a carabiner. Easier just to mould or stamp out one large and one small hole? But there again? (I climbed a little over twenty years ago when weight to muscle ratio was a lot better than it is today). Rope looped through big hole over small and carabiner to harness or sling, also works as a jammer when absailing. Just a thought.
Kevin

Having printed picture to scale and cutting a cardboard template, fitting my old climbing rope I agree with others it is a BELAY PLATE.
Kevin

Good effort Kevin, and well beyond my own limited experience in climbing generally. So can I put forward the view of a former ML1/RM from the 60's/70's, but please note that he is also at a loss as to what was it's actual purpose. His thoughts as posted on OAM site. It was also he that instigated the initial search on that site.

"I know that 5 Commando conducted horse patrols when they were in the Far East and Hong Kong. There were several photos of 5 Commando on horseback patrol and back in barracks. Maybe the brass 'thing' was part of the horses tack? It would explain the rope grooves at each end and why its such an industrial design. I may be clutching at straws here but lack any equine insight that might be help. Every contribution is a valid one though. Intrigued by the hammock suggestion but thought if that were the case they would be in pairs. Maybe he lost one."

and.....

"My gut feeling is that its unlikely to be an abseil device as the old Cdos used a half abeil technique using friction berween them and the rope. Still in use in the 70's! Could be totally wrong. I'm leaning towards the horse connection or a link between two toggle ropes (I know there was a wooden toggle but....) but it certainly had a rope of some sort running through both ends."

Keep the suggestions coming guy's, we will crack this one.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 17/10/2020 15:17:55

Well I do like the suggestion that it was a piece of tackle used for horses - but my family used to have horses and I can't think how/why it would be used.

But what about a hook for attaching a flag to the halyard - a sort of crude Inglefield hook (pictured) but instead of disconnecting the metal hooks, the swivel 'gate' is opened, the loop on the halyard inserted into one circle and a loop on the flag into the other, gate swiveled shut, raise the flag...

Nick

Reply from a credible source.

"This isn?t anything originally designed for climbing/belaying ? It is a user openable/closeable chain link"

Kevin

Thanks for that Kevin, could your 'source' possibly give us some examples of when it would be used, and in what context? Particularly how it might have been used by a former WW2 Commando? This might just be the breakthrough we have been looking for. Thanks again mate. Pockets.

ps Steve, the former ML1, was mightily impressed with your 'modelling' earlier.

The quoted reply was from a climbing equipment manufacturer who did not elaborate further as to its possible use.
But to throw the pervebial spanner.
As it appears to be made of copper or brass and that copper equipment was used in maritime/naval equipment such as diving (helmet, etc). Also if it was a millitery manufactured item would it not have a broad arrow mark? Also could it be a "pick up" and not a Commando related item.
Kevin

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 22/10/2020 11:59:12

Hi again Kevin, the general consensus on the OAM site with regards to your conclusions on origin and non general issue is generally agreed. In fact it would, I suspect, be nothing out of the ordinary for a new, irregular force, such as the commandoes, especially during the war, for members to improvise, and adapt pieces of kit to benefit the job in hand.

I particularly appreciate your assertion on the item being brass, (It is solid brass), making it more likely to have a maritime origin. Although to keep an open mind, the materials available in 1940's Britain would have been much more limited and available than any period since, and we should stay aware of the era and the overall situation when making general assumptions. But that said, I personally think a maritime link does make some sense to me. Thanks again for your input Kevin, you have really advanced the thinking on the matter overall, and I will certainly pass on your thoughts elsewhere. Cheers.

ps Just to summarise the suggestions that have been made. It has not only been suggested as an early 8 Ring/ belay type thingy, but as a guy stay for tents, some sort of clip on device to be used in association with a toggle rope or similar, and as a half of a set for stringing up a hammock. I have also myself considered the possible use for retaining a container when parachuting after it is lowered below the jumper after having left the aircraft. keep them coming.