Thomas Young (Army Number 4389966)

I have recently received my father Tom's service records and I am now researching these. Tom was formally posted to the 11th Scottish Commando on 7 September 1940, presumably after training in Galashielss and the 100 mile march from there to Ayr. He originally joined the Seaforth Highlanders on 11 August 1939 and volunteered for "special services". His record shows him joining Layforce "C" Bn on 4 April 1941 and, after service in the Middle East, Egypt and Cyprus, took part in the Commando operation at Litani River, Lebanon on 6 June 1941. After dissolution of the 11th Scottish Commando, he joined the LRDG (3 September 1941) and served with this until February 1943.

Any information about his troop within the 11th Scottish, his "party" (X,Y or Z) at Litani or anything else would be appreciated.

Welcome to the forum Bob

You should be rightly proud of your father's exploits in 11 Cdo and the LRDG. There is no 'official history' as such of 11 Cdo but by far the best thing to read on the Litani River raid is Ian McHarg's book 'Litani River', see his website here: https://ianmcharg.co.uk/the-battle-of-litani-river
You used to be able to down load a PDF version for free, not sure if you still can. I've done a search on your father's name but unfortunately he doesn't appear in it.

There have been a few other posts recently about 11 Cdo which also may be worth a look:

http://forum.commandoveterans.org/cdoForum/posts/list/6674.page

http://forum.commandoveterans.org/cdoForum/posts/list/5355.page

Do you have any idea what the dark looking band is on your father's epaulette on the bottom photograph?

Regards
Paul

Found this on Wikipedia.
Kevin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Range_Desert_Group

I didn't cover LRDG in my post as the request was about 11 Cdo rather than LRDG, and there are lots of books about the LRDG, but for completeness I'd recommend this:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sting-Scorpion-Inside-Story-Desert/dp/0750937041
happy hunting
Paul

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 15/09/2019 19:02:15

11 Commando Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._11_(Scottish)_Commando

As Paul (Belly) mentions - the epaulette band is very interesting ... any clues as to what colour this is etc would be appreciated.
Great to see another posting on here about No.11 Cdo.
You may like to see the booklet on this forum, under documents: 'Jiggered About Beyond Belief ' compiled by Alan Orton.
Mike

Hi Bob,

Here is the link to No.11 Cdo on THIS website...

http://www.commandoveterans.org/11Commando

Once there, the red text are links to other items of interest regarding No.11 Cdo...

Nick

Hi Nick
Thanks for adding the link - a useful route to further information
Mike

With regard to the coloured strip of cloth on Thomas' epaulette, given that the photo was taken in 1941 the early days of the Commandos, I would hazard a guess that it signifies the troop he belonged to...
The cloth strip is very dark/black which suggests, to me, that it was either red or black!

As a photographer in the RAF, I was taught about photographic emulsions and learned about Orthochromatic black & white film emulsions, which were red sensitive, and Panchromatic black and white films, which were sensitive to all colours.

Orthochromatic films were still very much in use in the 30s and 40s and because of the film's sensitivities, any thing red photographed would turn out very dark/almost black!

This gave the Movie industry a problem with actresses who wore bright red lipstick which was in vogue at the time - the result was it looked as if they had black lips - so the answer was to make them wear blue lipstick, this gave a much paler shade of grey which was far more acceptable...

For comparison take a look at the photo of George Capper (see link below)
George is also wearing a strip on his epaulette but his is a much lighter shade of grey - especially when compared to his hackle ( Thomas' strip is the same shade as his hackle!).

http://gallery.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/11/Scan0002.tif.html

Nick

Nick
Thanks for the excellent insight as ever ... the George M Capper image appears to back up the theory of troop designations ... more research to do, but a very helpful observation thank you. If only I had asked some of the veterans like Walter Marshal and Jock Anderson years ago ... sadly gone, but never forgotten.
Regards
Mike

Thanks for all the responses to my post.

I have already bought Ian McHarg's book and agree that it gives a very detailed account. Like you, I found no reference to Tom. I also have a couple of books on the LRDG (David Lloyd Owen and Gavin Mortimer).

Re the "black" strip on the Tom's epaulette, my sister has the original photo and I have asked her to check it, but I doubt this will help as it is just a black and white photo. NIC's comments are useful about colour appearances at that time. Does anyone have a record of which colours designated which troops?

Further information on Tom.

His rank was Private/Lcpl

He survived the war, latterly (after the LRDG) back with the 2nd Btn Seaforth Highlanders, seeing service in Sicily, Italy mainland, D-Day (Operation Totalize - Caen) and Germany

His medals - Africa Star with 8th army clasp, Italy Star, France and Germany Star, 1939-45 Star, Defence Medal and 1939-45 Medal

I assume that, once approved, Tom will be added to the 11th Scottish Commando gallery.

Tom died married Ruby Broadbent on 28 January 1946 in Hawick, whilst still serving, and had 3 children - I am the eldest. He died in his native Driffield, East Yorkshire, on 8 November 1990, aged 69.

Hi Bob,

I have already uploaded your photo of Tom to the No.11 Cdo album in the Gallery - the photo of him with the Black Hackle was good enough for me - scroll down the page, click on the thumbnail to open then click again to enlarge the image...

I have also added him to the No.11 Cdo nominal roll...

http://gallery.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/11/?g2_page=3

http://www.commandoveterans.org/11CommandoNomRollP-Z

Do you have any other photos of him and his commando pals at all? These are very useful for research and quite often people will find their commando relative on these casual group shots...

Nick

Bob and Nick - thanks for adding to the story of No.11 Cdo - as you say Nick ... images for this unit are very valuable given its relatively short life.
Unfortunately, Bob, I am not aware of any guidance on epaulette strip colours, and only wish I had asked a couple of veterans about them when they were alive - truth is, I do not think anyone realised the strips existed as there are so few images of the unit - it underlines how important your images are. Very many thanks for sharing them.
Regards and hoping to learn more ...
Mike

Purely a shot in the dark but could they possibly be covering up shoulder titles?
I know Commandos then didn't wear regimental badges but i have a picture from 8 Commando wearing the MEC knuckeduster badge, could it just be that they were wearing them un officially and covered them up for censorship purposes?

Alan
An interesting theory and one we should not dismiss. You are right, the ME Cdo knife badge was worn outside 50,51, 52 ME Cdos - I have seen an image of a Force 133 chap wearing one (possibly ex ME Cdo)
All the best
Mike