Pte William Roberts - 3651864

Hi Carolyn
In your first post you you say that you have the MM in your Grandfathers items. The medal should be engraved around the edge with his Name, Rank, Serial No and Regiment is there anything there? I have looked in the George A Brown book Commando Gallantry Awards of World War 11 but the only Roberts showing is the award of a DCM to a Royal Marine Sgt. Good Luck in your search.
Cheers
Bill

Thank you Kevin and Bill for your replies.

To be honest, as I have spent a while trying to read around this, I am becoming quite unnerved that things may not be as they seem. There is no engraving around the military medal which throws up all manner of questions - not least as to whether it was ever his at all.

He clearly served in some shape or form for many years - including before the war. He received a 'distinguished conduct' pension - that I have evidence of (my Mum wrote to cancel it on his death in 1983 and I have a reply letter). Yet, his 2WW service seems to be an enigma and I've prepared my Mum that things she was told may turn out not to be the case. As a History graduate, I am all too aware of how such things pan out!

I'll update when I receive his service records.

Hi Carolyn,

I can understand your concern but please don't become too alarmed - wait until you receive his service records. These do tend to be the most accurate record of the individual's service.

You do have to remember that this was a chaotic period and not everything was done according to the guidelines of the time...
In the few years that I've been an amateur researcher, I've seen all matter of matters that aren't as they should be - there is one case of a commando officer who was awarded the Military Cross - I know this happened, but I have been unable to find any record of it in the London Gazette or any other official record...

I was contacted by a very concerned lady, living in Australia, who had applied to MoD for her father's record only to be told 'no such person existed' - she had his paybook with his service number and knew him to have been in the Army, in the Royal Signals. She tried the the Royal Signals and their museum but to no avail - there was no record of her father!
She tried various WWII websites, but they could not help.
Believing either that her father hadn't told the truth or that she was going insane, she never gave up hope and, eventually, stumbled on the CVA website and emailed me directly.
There then followed a quick flurry of emails and I asked her a few searching questions which gave me a few clues and from there, within a couple of days, I was able to confirm her father had indeed been in the Royal Signals and had been a commando.
That then led me to question why the MoD had no record of the man and so with the help of a few more question & answer sessions, I came up with a theory...
Could her father possibly have has two service numbers? Again, after a little digging we came up with a tiny fragment of information, the lady phoned the MoD (for about the 4th time) and lo and behold they 'found' her father's records.
After he was demobbed, he had joined up again and was given a new number and it was under this number that his records were had been catalogued.

I tell you this story to try and show you that there can be all sorts of problems but, invariably, the stories our fathers and grandfathers told us are the truth.
These days there are a few Walter Mitty types who would have folk believe that they are heroes but this behaviour hardly existed during or shortly after the War.
I'm sure your grandfather was exactly the person you and your mother believe him to have been - a quiet, unassuming hero who just got on with his job - because that is what the King expected.

I am happy to try and help wheresoever I can - with any question, no matter how trivial or banal it may seem to you, and wait with eagerness your post to tell us that the service records have arrived and all your fears were unfounded.

Nick

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 31/12/2014 18:26:22

Thank you, Nick.

I've been quizzing my Mum non-stop recently! Regarding the photos - apparently, my Grandad told her that he wasn't allowed to take his camera with him.

My Grandad was married to my mum's birth mother - who was very troubled, to say the least and abandoned my mum and uncle several times, eventually deserting my Grandad for good when my mum was just 2 years old. We have never seen or heard of her since and my Grandad filed for divorce on grounds of desertion some years later. So much, was - as you say - chaotic and fraught with difficulty.

The reason I say this is because when I asked my Mum about the MM not being engraved she said the following via email:

"The Military Medal you have is what they call a Dress Medal, it is not the real medal, my Dad told me that. The real medal was missing when he got home. He thinks my mother gave it to somebody (an American perhaps) as a souvenir. That would have his name on the side of it. He told me once that if I went to the Union Jack Club in London his name would be on the wall. He was also wounded near Niemegan which is near Arnhem. That was when he lost his hearing. It must have been near the end of the war as he was still in hospital in Bedford when the war ended. He was allowed to go out and people were celebrating in the streets but he could not hear them. His hearing eventually came back in one ear."

It never ceases to amaze me what that generation went through on our behalf.

Hi Carolyn
Nick is dead right, i`ve been tripped up a couple of times during my digging but got there in the end. Dad`s medal is stamped but has got the wrong service number on it. Whilst I was checking earlier on the Recommendations for Awards on the National Archive site I came across notification of an award of a Distinguished Service Order to a Campbell Richard Hardy whose rank is listed as Serjeant Major not Brigadier. Keep on going Carolyn.
Cheers
Bill

Nick, Carolyn.
Have made a quick search for service records of William Roberts - 3651864 but unfortunately nothing has turned up. This is the subject of the post therefore there is written evidence connecting William and his service number. As you say, as with my father, he had two service number's so that a simple search was misleading. As you say the best advise is to wait. As I did not know that my father who with the R.W.F in Pembroke and was in Swansea jail, serving three months hard labour in 1923 for a felony (theft). Prior to posting to India.

Good luck Carolyn

Kevin

Hi Carolyn,

I'm sure the anecdotes about your grandfather will turn out to be true - but it is nailing the evidence that may prove problematic.

To further illustrate that errors are even made in peace time -let alone the chaos of war - during my time in the RAF ( 1970 -1998) I was awarded TWO GSMs (General Service Medals) both engraved with my number, rank & name.

Having been awarded the GSM for Northern Ireland back in 1975, if I were to serve in any further operations, which qualified me to receive a GSM, I should only receive a clasp to the original medal.
However, because of some clerical error I have one GSM, for Northern Ireland, engraved with my rank at the time, SAC (Senior Aircraftsman), in 1975 and another, for Air Operations Iraq, engraved with my rank, Sgt, in 1994.

Nick

Hi Kevin/everyone,
You say you have searched for the Service Records of 3651864 William Roberts - I'm guessing that you have used one of the commercial websites such as Ancestry or something similar?

May I point out to anyone who is thinking of doing the same that these sites, despite their claims, are not privy to WWII Service Records.

The only source of these records is the MoD and even then there are restrictions on what people can apply for and receive. This is down partly to the Data Protection Act etc.
This is also why there are different channels to make enquiries through the MoD - with Next of Kin consent or General Enquirers (without NoK consent).
The basic criteria is that the subject of the enquiry may still be alive so the Government may not release facts about that individual to any enquirer.

Do not subscribe to these site that claim to have WWII service records - you will waste your money as they do not have full records and will not for a number of years!

Nick

Thank you Bill, Nick & Kevin for your replies.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 01/01/2015 17:27:42

Isn't it wonderful how everyone is trying to help ;-)

Carolyn, while you wait for the service records, following on from Kevin's earlier post, what about following the South Lancashire Regiment path and
contacting or visiting the Lancashire Infantry Museum ?

While they will not have any service records, perhaps they have a list of MM winners, or may point you in another direction ?

http://www.lancashireinfantrymuseum.org.uk/research/ - I'm not connected with this museum by the way.

NWE 3.6.44 to 13.6.44
Home 14.6.44 to 7.1.45
NWE 8.1.45 to 9.3.45

Interesting how North West Europe is recorded as 3rd of June. It is well documented that the Overlord invasion was postponed due to the bad weather, so perhaps this is the date he embarked on his invasion vessel rather than had his "boots on the ground" in France. Perhaps somebody can clarify if being in transit somewhere counted as being in that theatre for record keeping.

Thinking aloud, the home period might be after being wounded you mentioned in your post, so that narrows down the MM medal award period to the two NWE time slots.

A summary of South Lancashires in WW2, which mentions Nijmegan, but that is after William returned home on 14th June.
http://www.lancashireinfantrymuseum.org.uk/world-war-ii-1/

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 01/01/2015 21:21:43

Thank you, Mark. Yes, I think I will pursue the South Lancashire Regiment aspect in the meantime.

As an aside - and apologies this isn't Commando related - I examined his photos quite thoroughly this afternoon and looked quite closely at a number he had taken in 1935 after the Quetta Earthquake. I know they are his photographs that he took because there are so many that are of him and his 'pals'. I also remember him telling me personally about one particular photo he was proud of because he happened to capture a streak of lightning!

Anyway, I was researching the Quetta earthquake online and came across this: http://www.nam.ac.uk/online-collection/detail.php?q=searchType%3Dsimple%26simpleText%3DQuetta%26themeID%3D%26resultsDisplay%3Dlist%26page%3D2&pos=17&total=59&page=2&acc=2005-04-10-17

That is my Grandad's photograph. The exact same photo is in his album. I have looked at the photographic paper and style of image and it's exactly the same as the ones of himself and his friends.

Carolyn

that's a very good quality photograph.
Looks like you should consider a visit to the National Army Museum too - it's right next door to the Royal Hospital Chelsea and we, the CVA, have an event at Chelsea in the RH on April 12th 2015...

Nick

Hi all

I received my grandfather's records a few weeks ago but have only really had the opportunity to look at them today (life of a teacher!) I can't see anything about the commandos or anything about a military medal, so I think these stories will remain a mystery.

I will post the service records for interest sake - even though he doesn't seem to have been a commando, he clearly had a great deal of respect for them. I think the South Lancashires did undertake some training up in Scotland and he certainly fought alongside them on the Normandy beaches.

If anyone notices anything interesting from the service records, I'd love to hear your thoughts! There are certainly some interesting nuggets which I have worked out so far, not least reverting to Private from Corporal but not to avoid a Court Martial!

Many thanks!

http://s1061.photobucket.com/user/Cally_Loois/library/?sort=3&page=1

I tried to follow the link but it says, 'Cally_Loois's Library is private'...

Can't get in!

Nick