Flashes and Patches

Sorry folks but if I don't ask,I'll never sleep.

In the picture gallery - Commando in WW2 - 3 Commando - 3Cdo in remembrance is a picture of LSGT AI Sinclair.

The photo shows no combined ops patch,can anyone identify the flash he is wearing, - it looks like skull or head inside a large D

I also note under the 3 commando flash, a small flash with I think HQ.

Is or was this normal commando dress.

Graham

Graham,

No3 Commando was, despite it's name, the first Commando to be formed - in 1940.

Up to 1941 they had no shoulder title but did wear individual troop patches.
'D' Troop, for instance, wore a white full face death head (not to be confused with the skull of No4 Cdo) in a blue 'D' on a dark green background.

In 1941, the troops changed from letters to numbers -
'D' Troop became 3 Troop but continued to wear the same patch;
4 Troop wore a white death head on a black disc ;
5 Troop just a black disc...

Nick

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 09/10/2019 11:35:25

This is a link to the photo to which Graham refers

http://gallery.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/3/Alexander+Sinclair+-+Isla_s+Uncle.jpg.html

And a photo of a reproduction badge I have described above

Thanks Nic,

Thank you for your detailed answer to my query,but it has generated 2 further questions

1)What is the source of your detailed answer.

2)If and when 3 Cdo started wearing the combined op patches,did they retain their troop patch as well.

Now I'll leave you in peace (on this subject)

Many thanks
Graham

Aaargh!
I should have known better - whenever I give Graham an answer to his questions it starts him off again...

Graham wrote:1)What is the source of your detailed answer.

To be honest, I can't remember the source regarding No3's troop flashes - it was something I came across a few years ago and jotted it down for future use, but I think it may have been Peter Taylor's book 'Allied Special Forces Insignia'.

Graham wrote:2)If and when 3 Cdo started wearing the combined op patches,did they retain their troop patch as well.

I'm sorry I don't know the answer to this but looking at other photos in the Gallery, I'd say no...

Nick

PS Keep the questions coming - as I've said before, none of us know everything so good questions mean more research and more information/knowledge, for everyone!

Nic

You are correct the common reference source for 3 commando troop badges is Peter Taylor's book, pg 48

I believe the insignia was standardised across all the commandos in early 43, when they rolled out the familiar red on blue shoulder titles to match the combined ops badges which came out late 42. I've seen a NA document that stated combined ops patches were readily available in a shop near Trafalgar Sq for 3/10d dated Dec 42! I've seen other documents too covering the introduction of the shoulder titles going back to May 42 when they were drawing up the types and quantities they needed.

Up until early 43 most units seem to do as the pleased which must have annoyed the powers that be!

Paul

I'm finding this all so very interesting. Hats off to the folk on here (and elsewhere) who do so much research.

Keep the questions - and answers - coming. It's absolutely fascinating! Thanks!

Nothing seems straight forward.

Referring back to the photo of LSGT Sinclair,he's wearing the D troop patch,but also under the 3Cdo shoulder title is a HQ badge.

Does this mean he was in D troop,attached to HQ troop of 3 Cdo, or perhaps the other way around.

To add a further observation,in Peter Taylor's book Special Forces Insignia 1939-45,in the section regarding 3 Cdo he writes"At the

time the new shoulder title,white on black appears with troop number underneath.HQ WORE JUST 3 Cdo TITLES".Our photo shows

a HQ badge.

Can any one date the photo.

That's it folks

Graham

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 12/01/2013 16:37:12

Hi I my recollection 3 commando titles with HQ under it did exist, I recall having seen pictures of such badge.
JB

To add a further observation,in Peter Taylor's book Special Forces Insignia 1939-45,in the section regarding 3 Cdo he writes"At the

time the new shoulder title,white on black appears with troop number underneath.HQ WORE JUST 3 Cdo TITLES".Our photo shows

a HQ badge.

Can any one date the photo.

That's it folks

Graham

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 12/01/2013 23:40:12

Interesting to see that L/Sgt Sinclair is still wearing the 13/18 Hussars shoulder slides on his epaulettes too...

Nick

Graham

I suspect the passage in Peter's book stating that HQ wore a plain badge was just an error, but in fairness I think it maybe only because photographic evidence of the 3 Commando titles with the HQ tabs have only come to light more recently. There is still so much we do not know and alas probably never will.

In terms of dates of these 'flat toped 3' white on black shoulder titles, they could only have been worn some time between 'soon after formation' July 40 to late 42/early 43 when the standardisation occurred of the red on blue titles. I don't have any more precise information than that I'm afraid.

Hi JB, see link in post above for the photo of the HQ tab badge. Brilliant photo, especially the fact that he's still wearing his parent regiment slip ons.

cheers
Paul

May or may not be of any use but of all the replica shoulder patches - i have a No9 commando shoulder patch white on black (maybe dark blue) - all the other replicas are red. Maybe whoever made them did some research ?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 12/01/2013 20:42:10

Hi Mike

For some reason (Not sure why) No 9 dug their heels in and retained white on black, although red on blue variants do exist too, but white on black is far more common and originals can be picked up quite cheaply.

Attached are some of my originals

cheers
Paul