Commando Berets.

JB wrote:Nick,

As far as I am aware plastic only appears in post war berets. Kangol, supak, beret industries ltd or British basque berets did not apply this during ww2.

Cheers
JB

Certainly I am not an authority on this, but, if what you say is correct, it does raise the question of why the double row of stitching in a diamond shape [as seen in the beret given to Andy Maines by WWII Commando Idris Jones]?

a. The stitching must have had a practical purpose as it does not attach the lining to the beret.
b. It is definitely not decorative - who looks at the inside of a beret?
c. It is not a trade mark - that would be a remarkable waste of cotton in such austere times.

Nick

segeorge70 wrote:Thank you all for the replies.

Here are a couple of fots showing a modern reproduction compared to the older, darker beret I have recently "aquired".

Hi Steve

Rifle Green that I'm afraid, the stitched slider pocket also makes it post war...

Cheers
Paul

JB,

Reading the text in the second page you downloaded, it says that untill 1944 there was a "mat gouden", which is perhaps best translated as "shaded gold" badge on the caps of officers from the rank of Colonel and above. After 1944 there was a gold embroided lion on a black background. Luitenant-colonels and Majors had a shaded golden lion. It also says that until 1944, officers, Warrant Officers First Class and Sub-luitenants had a bronze lion. Ranks below that of WO1 had a yellow coper lion.

It's hard to say if the lion on the beret you have is yellow copper or shade gold. I don't know the difference between the both. As it is a bit shiny, you could think it might be yellow copper.

Hi Nick,

Here are 2 examples of a Kangol 1944 liner, one with and one without stitching. The diamond stamp is typical to Kangol berets.

JB

NIC wrote:

JB wrote:Nick,

As far as I am aware plastic only appears in post war berets. Kangol, supak, beret industries ltd or British basque berets did not apply this during ww2.

Cheers
JB

Certainly I am not an authority on this, but, if what you say is correct, it does raise the question of why the double row of stitching in a diamond shape [as seen in the beret given to Andy Maines by WWII Commando Idris Jones]?

a. The stitching must have had a practical purpose as it does not attach the lining to the beret.
b. It is definitely not decorative - who looks at the inside of a beret?
c. It is not a trade mark - that would be a remarkable waste of cotton in such austere times.

Nick

Thanks Jack,
I think it is yellow coper (brass). JB

PS: I am Dutch expat and served as a kornet in the Dutch cavalary recce unit "wielverkenners" (Huzaren van Boreel) during compulsory military service;

Jack Bakker wrote:JB,

Reading the text in the second page you downloaded, it says that untill 1944 there was a "mat gouden", which is perhaps best translated as "shaded gold" badge on the caps of officers from the rank of Colonel and above. After 1944 there was a gold embroided lion on a black background. Luitenant-colonels and Majors had a shaded golden lion. It also says that until 1944, officers, Warrant Officers First Class and Sub-luitenants had a bronze lion. Ranks below that of WO1 had a yellow coper lion.

It's hard to say if the lion on the beret you have is yellow copper or shade gold. I don't know the difference between the both. As it is a bit shiny, you could think it might be yellow copper.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 29/12/2011 23:57:11

Hi JB,

JB wrote:Hi Nick,

Here are 2 examples of a Kangol 1944 liner, one with and one without stitching. The diamond stamp is typical to Kangol berets.

JB

To be honest it would appear that there is double rows of stitching on all 3 of the photos of berets you have downloaded.

As I said in an earlier post I used to remove the plastic and liner from my berets but some of my colleagues used to leave it in - it would soon become discoloured and eventually very brittle and break. This would be very uncomfortable for the wearer - who would then remove it. I wore berets from 1970 through to 1998 and the later berets (still manufactured by Kangol) had a much thicker and more pliant plastic from my first beret.
I can only imagine that the plastic in the WWII was of a much lesser quality even than that of the 1970s and would have disintegrated very quickly - hence a lack of plastic sheets in early berets.

Nick

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 30/12/2011 07:55:47

Nick
it is not exact science but I have only seen plastic in private purchase officers berets in ww2 and not in any ww2 kangol, supak, beret industries or beret basque. I also wonder looking at Idris beret liner if it is cotton or not. It has a bit of shiny glance about it
as if it is synthetic material which you see only in post war berets. If that were the case Idris may possibly have replaced the original liner? Cheers JB

NIC wrote:Hi JB,

JB wrote:Hi Nick,

Here are 2 examples of a Kangol 1944 liner, one with and one without stitching. The diamond stamp is typical to Kangol berets.

JB

To be honest it would appear that there is double rows of stitching on all 3 of the photos of berets you have downloaded.

As I said in an earlier post I used to remove the plastic and liner from my berets but some of my colleagues used to leave it in - it would soon become discoloured and eventually very brittle and break. This would be very uncomfortable for the wearer - who would then remove it. I wore berets from 1970 through to 1998 and the later berets (still manufactured by Kangol) had a much thicker and more pliant plastic from my first beret.
I can only imagine that the plastic in the WWII was of a much lesser quality even than that of the 1970s and would have disintegrated very quickly - hence a lack of plastic sheets in early berets.

Nick

Belly wrote:

segeorge70 wrote:Thank you all for the replies.

Here are a couple of fots showing a modern reproduction compared to the older, darker beret I have recently "aquired".

Hi Steve

Rifle Green that I'm afraid, the stitched slider pocket also makes it post war...

Cheers
Paul

Thanks Paul, much appreciated.
All the best for the new year.

Steve. :)

Just had a look at my dad's beret and the maker's name is not easy to read but appears to be either Bubla or Bubia. This is printed inside a circle with 'Made in England' above and something that may be 'All Wool' below.

Hi Peter,
could you may be post a picture? JB

[quote=Peter Cooper]Just had a look at my dad's beret and the maker's name is not easy to read but appears to be either Bubla or Bubia. This is printed inside a circle with 'Made in England' above and something that may be 'All Wool' below. [/quote]

Photo attached as requested.

Hi Jb,

JB wrote:Nick
it is not exact science but I have only seen plastic in private purchase officers berets in ww2 and not in any ww2 kangol, supak, beret industries or beret basque. I also wonder looking at Idris beret liner if it is cotton or not. It has a bit of shiny glance about it
as if it is synthetic material which you see only in post war berets. If that were the case Idris may possibly have replaced the original liner? Cheers JB

Looking at the first photo of Idris' beret I believe the lining to be cotton, the second photo does indeed look shiney, but I believe this to be caused by the reflection of the flash and the position of the camera when the photo was taken - the flash being mounted on the camera.
Looking closely you'll notice a single line of stitching (without the thread) which 'cuts off' two of the diamond points.
I'm still not convinced that the WWII issue berets did not have plastic in them - especially if, as you say, there were berets of that era that did have plastic inside (albeit officers berets).

As I said previously, why would the stitching be there other than to attach the plastic diamond to the lining?

Nick

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 01/01/2012 15:01:09

Nick

The lining itself on ww2 berets has a "stiffiner" of felt, burlap or similar material to help keep the shape. Years later this method was dispensed with by many companies when the fashion of berets went to a close fitting "skull cap" look. So in my view no plastic in ww2 berets.

Happy new year.

JB

NIC wrote:Hi Jb,

JB wrote:Nick
it is not exact science but I have only seen plastic in private purchase officers berets in ww2 and not in any ww2 kangol, supak, beret industries or beret basque. I also wonder looking at Idris beret liner if it is cotton or not. It has a bit of shiny glance about it
as if it is synthetic material which you see only in post war berets. If that were the case Idris may possibly have replaced the original liner? Cheers JB

Looking at the first photo of Idris' beret I believe the lining to be cotton, the second photo does indeed look shiney, but I believe this to be caused by the reflection of the flash and the position of the camera when the photo was taken - the flash being mounted on the camera.
Looking closely you'll notice a single line of stitching (without the thread) which 'cuts off' two of the diamond points.
I'm still not convinced that the WWII issue berets did not have plastic in them - especially if, as you say, there were berets of that era that did have plastic inside (albeit officers berets).

As I said previously, why would the stitching be there other than to attach the plastic diamond to the lining?

Nick

hi Graham,

JB wrote:

Nick

The lining itself on ww2 berets has a "stiffiner" of felt, burlap or similar material to help keep the shape. Years later this method was dispensed with by many companies when the fashion of berets went to a close fitting "skull cap" look. So in my view no plastic in ww2 berets.

Happy new year.

JB

Regards Graham.

Yes, I certainly remember the hessian (burlap) stiffener in my berets (post war, I hasten to add!) but it was a 2 inch strip that ran around the 'headband' between the felt beret and the black cotton lining. The hessian, in my era, did not cover the crown and, even if it did, I seriously doubt that the size and nature of the stitching would hold the hessian in place.
To be honest, I would still favour the plastic diamond arguement.

These discussions are very valuable in that we are exploring the make-up and composition of berets - an iconic part of Commando equipment - but I don't think we're moving forward with this one.

I think we need some serious research and a definative answer on this.

Nick

Thanks Peter
nice beret thanks, never came accross this maker of berets.

Cheers
JB
[quote=Peter Cooper]Photo attached as requested.[/quote]