Fus Joseph Ball, No4 Cdo

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 17/12/2011 11:49:10

The quote in Jimmy Dunning's book is from a Cdo Veteran Bill Johnson and it states that the shooting happened in the town, It states that as a result of ill feeling the Commando was confined to their billets whilst an investigation took place.Has anyone checked the No. 4 Cdo War Diary to see if there is any information there. Joseph Ball and Bill Johnson were both in Captain Thorburn's 1 troop late '44

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 17/12/2011 12:09:31

I have contacted the CWGC before regarding reinterment and am happy to do so again. As we now have photos of the original graves of Fusilier Ball, and the others recently posted in the Nederweert War Cemetery album, it is a perfectly reasonable request. They are a small unit and it does take a long time but they have always responded positively in the past to any request I have made. If someone has already contacted them, or particularly wants to make the contact themselves, can they let me know.

Pete,

As you have already contacted the CWGC before, wouldn't it be an idea that you do so again? It prevents that they get the same question about the graves several times from several different people. Besides that, I guess that you exactly know whom to contact on this matter. But if you are too busy with other things, I am more than willing to contact the CWGC. I just have to know whom to contact.

Regards,

Jack

In the absence of a photo of Fusiler Ball, I have posted the photo of his grave and the people paying respects into the No.4 Commando "In Remembrance" album. It can be viewed on this link:

http://www.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/4/in+remembrance/J_Ball_burial+_1_.jpg.html

Nick, I have sent you a pm regarding the other phto.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 21/12/2011 00:48:42

It's very gratifying that Jack & Bill have taken up the cause of Fusilier Joseph Ball.

When Nigel Ball first contacted me, he and his sister, Julia, knew very little about the untimely death of their Uncle, Joe.
All they had previously was one dog-eared photo of a Dutch family gathered around a grave which they believed to be their uncle's.
By chance they happened upon the photo of Fusilier Joseph Ball's gravestone that we hold in our Gallery and contacted me in the hope we had more information. At that time they weren't even 100% sure that it was their uncle's - all they knew was that he had died in roughly the same area.
I posted the email on the forum on behalf of Nigel & Julia and from there things have unfolded and moved along quite well and I know Nigel & Julia are very moved and very pleased with the help they have received from our members.
Thanks Guys.

Nick.

With the approval of Julia and Nigel I have started a search for the people who are the photo at Joseph's graveside. One of things in that search was contacting local history groups. I am in contact with one of them and they will look into it and let me know if and when they find something. An other thing was contacting a newspaper which is deliverd for free at nearly every house in Bergen op Zoom, where Joseph was killed and buried. The people on the photo might well be the family were he was billeted. So if that newspaper comes to every house, it might well be possible that family of the people on the photo see the photo and start calling. An article with the photo was publised on Wednesday.

I made contact with a regional newspaper. An article, in which is the same photo as well as a photo of the headstone of Joseph, was publiced yesterday in the region around Bergen op Zoom and today in the region around Roosendaal.

Today I received an email from a man in Bergen op Zoom. Not with information on the people on the photo, but with information about the cemetery, which I think might be useful for this site as well. He said that:

The present cemeteries, so both the Canadian and the British, were developed in midst 1945. He gave an example of a crew member of a Lancaster bomber which crashed near the village of Lepelstraat. He was initially buried near Lepelstraat, but was reinterred on the Canadian cemetery on 6th June 1945.

On old photos of the cemetery there were white crosses on the graves, which were later replaced with headstones by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission. The grave of Joseph has a white cross.

The trees and bushes which are in the background of the photo might very well indicate that the photo was taken on the cemetery of Bergen op Zoom, as there are still trees and bushes there now.

Military casualties were, around the time that Joseph was killed, buried on one of the cemeteries which are there now.

So I think it's fair to say that the photo was made on the present War Cemetery in Bergen op Zoom. The search will continue!

I was at the National Archives yesterday so I had a look at both copies of the No. 4 War Diary held there. Unfortunately there are no mentions of Joseph Ball - there isn't actually much in the Diary at all for the period. Here is a transcript for May, June & August 1945 (there were no entries in July)

7 May 1945 HALSTEREN: No. 7 French Troop moved to SCHOUWEN and established HQ at BRUINISSE and to clear and mark all minefields in that area. The Commanding Officer went over to OVERFLAKKEE to contact the German Garrison Commander to arrange and receive the unconditional surrender terms and the moving in of our own troops

8 May 1945 HALSTEREN: No. 1 Troop moved to OVERFLAKKEE to establish their HQ at OOLTGENSPLAAT and take over from the enemy garrison. VE day was celebrated in the famous traditional Commando style

13 May 1945 HALSTEREN: Commando relieved of duties on THOLEN & ST PHILIPSLAND and moved to Vrederust Asylum near BERGEN-OP-ZOOM

23 May 1945 BERGEN-OP-ZOOM: GOC's visit to Commando to say goodbye

24 May 1945 BERGEN-OP-ZOOM: CO and Officers and detachment went to Paris

26 May 1945 PARIS: Lt Col RWP Dawson DSO, together with Maj P Kieffer MC and other officers and ORs of Brit and Fr personnel of the Commando received military awards from M. Louis Jacquinot, French Navy Minister in Paris. After being decorated they marched down the Champs Elysees to the Arc de Triomphe, where a wreath was placed on the tomb of the unknown warrior

7 June 1945 VREDERUST-OP-ZOOM: No. 4 Commando moved from BERGEN-OP-ZOOM to RECKLINGHAUSEN, Germany and took over duties at No. 91 Internment Camp from the US Army

24 June 1945 RECKLINGHAUSEN: Lt Col RWP Dawson was posted to HOC on becoming a Parliamentary Candidate. Lt Col BWS Boucher-Myers took over command of the Unit

27 June 1945 RECKLINGHAUSEN: 233 ORs of No. 4 Commando were posted to No.s 3 & 6 Commandos and HOC for drafting to the Far East, leaving 180 all ranks as No. 4 Commando

11 August 1945 FLUSHING: Flushing Ceremony. The people of Flushing showed their appreciation of the part played by this unit in liberating their town by presenting a flag to detachment of 4 Officers and 40 ORs at BRUGES

11 August 1945 ROTTERDAM: Detachment of 12 ORs took part in Rotterdam Navy Week giving demonstration on Commando tactics and also supplied Guard of Honour to Queen Wilhemina

17 August 1945 DIEPPE: Dieppe ceremony. Lt Col RWP Dawson DSO and 40 ORs took part in the ceremony held to mark the anniversary of the Combined Operations raid at 1942 at Dieppe

24 August 1945 RECKLINGHAUSEN: Brigade Commander visit. Brig JL Moulton DSO. Exercise Tarantula was carried out in conjunction with 1st Corp; check being made at ref points on all civilian transport

Dear Julie,

Thank you very much for all your effort!
I was surprised that there wasn't anything on the death of Joseph Ball in the War Diary. You might expect that there would be something there as this happened after the war in Europe had ended, and so it was something out of order so to speak. I had hopes that the diary would reveal something about the circumstances, as I have found nothing about it the several Dutch archives I went through.

In a police report I found there was mention of a big fight between French Commandos and men from the Dutch Navy on the evening of the 2nd to the 3rd of June 1945 at 10.15 hours. The fight took place on the Big Square in the centre of Bergen op Zoom. (On this square Joseph was shot by a trigger happy Dutch soldier, according to a witness in the book on No 4 Commando by James Dunning). The streets to the square were cordoned off by the police in order to prevent people going there. A 30 men strong patrol cleared the square. In the police report, a patrol of the Dutch Navy later told a police officer that three Frenchmen were killed and several wounded during the fight.

The strange thing is that I found nothing about all this in old newspapers, nor in the archives of the Dutch Military Government at that time, nor in any other source. Nothing about Joseph being killed by a trigger happy Dutch soldier, noting about the fight, nothing about three dead and several wounded. I contacted the French Militairy Attache in The Hague about the French dead. They came back saying that in Holland there are no French soldiers buried who were killed on that date. In a post on the forum, Peter Cooper, the son of Dennis Cooper of No 4 Commando, tells that he remembers his father telling him that Joseph was stabbed and killed by a Dutch resistance fighter. Nothing found on that either.

My theory is that the big fight was the result of the stabbing of Joseph by a Dutch resistance fighter. (Who by the witness in Jimmy Dunning's book was taken for a Dutch soldier. This I can understand as the Dutch resistance at that time wore all sorts of equipement and could easily be taken for a soldier. Besides that, parts of the resistance were in the proces of becoming regular troops). I think (theory!) that the French heard of all this and came to the big square and that in the meantime Dutch Navy men were there as well and than the big fight started. In it shots were fired to disperse the people on the square and that might be picked up as Joseph being shot. The question that arises is: where there any dead Frenchmen at all? Has the patrol seen the three dead they spoke about themselves or just heard about it? And from whom? And has that witness seen the three dead or heard about it as well? And so on and so forth.

So I think that the exact circumstances of Joseph Ball's death will forever remain a mistery of some sort.

The circumstances of his death are and were not the main target. That was and still is the photo with the people standing at his grave. There is still no news about that. This Saturday a call for information, together with the photo, was published in one of the biggest national newspapers in Holland. Hopefuly this will bring something. Contacts with local history groups and even a call on a website of one of them, has generated nothing so far. There are two more calls for information in the process of being published in magazines that cover The Netherlands.

The only thing I know so far is from a message from the CWGC. They told that Joseph was intially buried at the German Kriegersfriedhof (cemetery) and that his body was transferred to the British War Cemetery on 15 July 1946. According to a archive I saw, the location of the Kriegersfriedhof was at the same spot as where the British cemetery is now. The German bodies were all transferred to a place called IJsselstein in Holland.

I have of course informed the family of Joseph, Julia Thorn and her brother Nigel Ball, about all this. As they knew nothing about their uncle Joseph, they are very pleased by what has come up until now. Both Julia and Nigel, together with a daughter of him, will visit Joseph's grave in Bergen op Zoom at the end of May this year. They will be there for the first time and in doing so will fulfill the wish of their father, Joseph's brother, who wanted to go there years ago but he died at a very young age.

The two boys on the photo of X TRoop of 47 Commando Royal Marines in Kamperland, were found within a week. I hope something like that will happen with the people on the photo at the grave of Joseph in due course.

Update on the search for the people on the photo: no results whatsoever! Even the call for information in a nation wide newspaper has brought nothing at all. I am now in contact with a radio and television broadcast company. They are very interested in it all.

One very interesting thing that has come forward is the contact with a man from Bergen op Zoom who has witnessed the shooting of Joseph. In a letter he told that on the 2nd of June 1945, there was a row on the Big Market Place in the centre of Bergen op Zoom. French Commandos were involved, as well as other soldiers. A lot of shouting was going on. All of a sudden, Dutch marines came storming from a street, weapons at the ready. After some more shouting, a shot was fired by one of the marines and a soldier fell down. The next day, shocked as he was by the shooting and even more by the fact that a soldier, a libarator of his country, was shot by another soldier, he went to the mortuary to pay his respect. There he saw the soldier and together with a nun prayed for the tall, handsome young man as he discribed him.

I have put this forward to the family of Joseph and the given discription was confirmed as fitting to all the Ball men in the family. It will take too far to write down the whole story told by the man, but to me it is more than confirmed that he saw Joseph. What he told fits in perfectly with the other information I have gained in the process, coming for instance from the police reports of that day.

At the end of June family of Joseph will visit his grave in Bergen op Zoom for the first time ever. The man mentioned is willing to meet them and talk about what he saw which is, in his own words, as clear in his mind as if it happend yesterday. So even if there is no result on the photo so far, I am more than happy with this result. Let alone the family.

On 30 June and 1 July, family members of Joseph (Joe) Ball visited his grave for the first time. This has always been a wish of their father, a brother of Joe, but he died very young. They have now fulfilled his wish. I had the privilage of being their host for the weekend. A weekend to remember I can asure you! The family laid a floral tribute on Joe's grave and met the man who had witnessed the shooting of Joe, which was a moving experience. On Monday an article with a photo was publised in a regional newspaper.

This morning I received an email from the journalist. He received a phone call from a man who had seen the article and he had some more information. In a telephone conversation I had with him he confirmed things I already knew from the eyewitness of the shooting and he confirmed things as wrong of which I thought/knew they were wrong. He lived in a house at the pond of the asylum Vrederust which was the place where No 4 Commando were billeted in 1945, which was confirmed by him. The man was 14 years of age at the time. Two French Commandos were billeted at his place and they regularly went on raids to Schouwen, one of the islands not far away. He still has a photo of one of them.

When it became known that a Commando was shot (which he heard from one of the Frenchmen billeted in his place; the incident was know at Vrederust the same day), the troops wanted to get their revenge in Bergen op Zoom. They were armed but were stopped by the commanding officer. This is probably what is said in the book about No 4 Commando, The Fighting Fourth, that the troops were confined to their billets to prevent a riot. The incident took place in the early evening of the 2nd of June. One of the Frenchmen billeted with this man, against orders went to the Grote Markt. It could be possible that he was involved in the big fight on the Grote Markt (which is in a police report). For going against orders he was punished and this for him meant that he wasn?t going to Paris where on the 6th of June a big parade was held (which is right).

The shot was fired by a patrol of the Dutch Navy and not by a Dutch Marine as they had already left Bergen op Zoom (which is right). The reason for firing is not known by the man. He doesn?t know if the Dutch Navy personnel and the Commandos had a quarrel beforehand. He does know though that the victim had very little to do with it all!! Which makes the death of Joe even more sadder I think. The Navy patrol came from the Fortuinstraat (which confirms the story of the eyewitness). From a cinema called Roxy, situated on the other side of the Grote Markt, the Commandos came walking and the shot was fired in front of Hotel De Draak (this also confirms the eyewitness's story). The man had heard then that the man who fired the shot had been brought to Vrederust, but he isn?t sure about that.

He is very sure though that the incident was kept completely silent and was covered up. Which is right I believe as I have found nothing about it in the archives of the Military Government at that time. He is also almost convinced that the legal side of the incident was dropped, which is right I believe as I have found nothing in the archives of the Military Court at that time as well. According to the man the French and/or British were also not keen on the incident being known. Which could be the reason that the death of Joe, nearly a month after the official end of the war, is not even mentioned in the war diary of No 4 Commando.

The family went back to the UK with more knowledge about their uncle than they ever had before. The service record of Joe is being applied for at the moment. When that arrives perhaps more will be known about the actions he took part in. It has been a hard slog since the beginning of November last year, but seeing the family at the grave of their uncle made it all very worthwhile!

Hi Jack,

Jack Bakker wrote:
The family went back to the UK with more knowledge about their uncle than they ever had before. The service record of Joe is being applied for at the moment. When that arrives perhaps more will be known about the actions he took part in. It has been a hard slog since the beginning of November last year, but seeing the family at the grave of their uncle made it all very worthwhile!

Well done Jack. As with every case, every tiny piece of information we can find for the families is worthwhile but I think you've done a magnificent job with this one.
I certainly never thought we'd ever find out much about Joe Ball when I first posted Nigel's email, but even with some pieces missing, the whole picture has more or less emerged.

Fantastic work Jack - are you ready for your next case yet?

Regards Nick

Well done Jack. In repsonse to your email I have added an album with photos and your information to the No.4 Commando "In Remembrance" gallery, and place another here in memory of Fusilier Joe Ball . Follow this link to view his album:

http://www.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/4/in+remembrance/Ball/

Sadly the family have no photo of Joe at present, however they say there is a family likeness to a Commando (the man sitting right behind the head of the man in black laying down) in this photo :

http://www.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/4/commandos.jpg.html

In Memory of 6016394 Fusilier JOSEPH BALL
Royal Irish Fusiliers and No. 4, Commando
who died age 23 on 03 June 1945
Remembered with honour BERGEN-OP-ZOOM WAR CEMETERY

Eureka! Something I thought would never happen, has happened today: the people on the photo standing at the grave of Joseph Ball (see an earlier post) have been identified!

Today I received an email from the headmaster of the school in Wissenkerke. Some time ago I contacted him in my search for information about Joseph Ball. Wissenkerke was the place where Joseph's unit, 1 Troop, No 4 Commando, was based in November/December 1944. At first there was little or no result, but the headmaster was so intrigued by the story about Joseph that he put it on his website. Today he received a phonecall of a parent of one of the children from his school. That parent had asked a man who is known in Wissenkerke as a "walking archive" about the people on the photo. And when he saw the photo he recognized them.

First on the left is Mr Ko Kramer. Next to him is his wife Betje de Ridder. They lived in the Voorstraat in Wissenkerken and their daughter, Jo Kramer who is 83 years of age now, still lives there. Next to Betje de Ridder is Mr Van der Maas and next to him is his wife whose maiden name was De Smit. They also lived in the Voorstraat. There was no name given of the sergeant on the extreme right. So what I thought all along has been confirmed: that the people on the photo (at least one couple as it turns out) were the people where Joseph Ball was billeted. I think they were informed of his death and were taken to his grave by the sergeant.

Jo Kramer phoned the headmaster and told him that she remembers a "Jo Ball". She also told him that Jo(e), just like a man called Thornburn, was billited with the Van der Maas family. Thornburn must be Capt Alastair Thornburn, OC 1 Troop, who in the book The Fighting Fourth by Jimmy Dunning, on page 191 says that he was "billeted with a very nice family called Van der Maas."

The headmaster in his mail said that his phone didn't stop ringing today and that everybody is very sympathatic about it all. He has given me the phonenumber of the "walking archive" so that I can contact him personally. Who knows what this might bring! I have of course informed the family of Joe Ball about these new developments.

Excellent work Jack. I know how hard you have worked to identify the people at the grave and the circumstances surrounding the death of Fusilier Joseph Ball. I have updated the details of the photo and hope that one day we will discover the identity of the Sergeant as well'

http://www.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/4/in+remembrance/Ball/J_Ball_burial+_1_.jpg.html

That's excellent news Jack.
So now, from just a single photo of a graveside, we now have almost a complete story.
I'm sure that Nigel & Julia will be absolutely delighted and it will give hope to many others that are trying to piece together their own stories.

Nick