Messages posted by: Phillip Lockett

Thanks Nick

Yes , also the established time frame for this title is late 1945-47 era.

Phill

Gidday Nic

Apologies for not giving forum members a better background on what we collectors look for in reproductions or fakes.

Here is a brief history.

DuPont Industries worked on synthetic fibers in the late 1920's and produced the first synthetic product in 1940 sold to the public, nylon stockings. Note other countries were working on synthetic fibers from the 20's as well.

Synthetic fibers are stronger , more durable and has a better colour fastness than natural fibers, its also a lot easier and can be massed produced than natural fiber.

Whist it had a very limited use during WWII the main product it was used for, were parachutes & nylon stockings.

The Germans also developed synthetic fiber during the war.

Polyester fiber started to come into use in the mid 50's , when the fashion market started to warm to the properties and the cheapness in clothing designs compared to natural fiber's.

For the biggest producer of military emblems , The US started to use polyester thread from the mid 50's onwards.

So from a collectors point of view , when you use a UV light it detects a glowing sign on any man made synthetic fiber and only on "white" thread -(no other colour thread).

The glowing bobbin (reverse) thread in the pic is embedded into the insignia.

The overall look leaves a lot to be desired ,with the better pics, the khaki medium is shabby , the stitching is not WWII era ie////// and should resemble a spaghetti look on the reverse, the cheese cloth cotton backing I thought would of "sparked " up but you can easily get cheese cotton cloth.

The book that this came out was from 2000 , so the cloth title is at least 16-20 years old.

Anyway thats a brief , I hope it helps.

One more point a reproduction is what it means, that no one gets fooled and is easily detected , a fake is set out to deceive , but from what point and who?

Phill

Hi all

Have just come across this pic and website of shoulder title being worn above Special Service Brigade.

Can anyone confirm this is late WWII or post WWII era , based on uniform or any other distinguishing marks.

I will post on BBF for more discussion.

http://195.188.87.10/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/62/a4396962.shtml

Gidday all

Last week I received an email from another collector friend in NZ , who saw my post on warelics forum.

He won the auction and emailed me with the same conclusion , I asked him to take several pics including UV if he could for future reference.

Note there are white glow threads shown under UV.

Also the lettering is machine made and not WWII era /////

Definite fake.

Phill

Hi all

I have uploaded these original manuscripts via my Dropbox:

These are easy to download and in pdf format , I hope you enjoy:

3 Commando Jungle Book March 1945

Story of the Commando 1943 Forward by Vice Admiral Lord Louis Mountbatten.

British Commando US War dept. Military Intelligence Service 1942

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/6rf9o30cavcw712/AAA54f_P5_t8nQPpEN5t3ll0a?dl=0

Phill

Thanks Nic

The feedback that Im getting is a blank from BBF!!

Im assuming (????) , that these were made to wartime specs late war and manufactured, but for what ever reason, it was not issued and RM's used there multi construction cloth insignia "cash tape" style post war and the thicker variation Royal Marines Commando from 1954 to mid 70's.

Very strange indeed.

If I come across anything of interest I will post here.

Phill

Hi all

I'm trying to find any reference on this shoulder title being used.

The title has all the hallmarks of late war era but after reading on here and posting on BBF. I'm wondering if this was made for but never issued? My speculation.

It is a paste-back and the lettering is //////.

Would any one know if paste back were used 46-47 period by some manufacturers?

Cheers in advance.

Phill

Thank you Bill

Whilst collecting WWII commando units Im in the process of getting reference books on their history , as I feel that knowing about the units history and deeds is extremely important along with the flash.

Much appreciated for the history of the 4th.

regards

Phill

Gidday JB

Thank you and I agree its a reproduction or a fake for all of the reasons I outlined.

I have posted on BBF under Formation signs (should of under elite) had 90 views and no response.

Anyway im on a look out for a red on black dark blue 4 commando to finish off my Normandy SSI and FS collection.

Phill

Thanks again Nic

You have been a big help and I appreciate you taking time to answer my questions.

Phill

Many thanks Nic

Thanks for breaking down 10 Cdo.

So how come Sgt Louis Lanternier wasn't wearing 10 Commando title ? Would that be due to regulations if you were attached to another unit you have to wear theirs?

Another question , in references, the round CO patch was used for Army Commando's and tombstone patch for RN Commando's? But I see the Polish commando wears a Tombstone.

Sorry for the q's Nic , im finding out more "behind the scene" here than in any other forum!

Phill

Again thanks Nic

I do appreciate you filing m in on the early issues and set up of the commando's.

Also letting me know about how colours could be misconstrued due to photographic emulsions and interpretation 70 years later , that has been prevalent in other areas of collecting I had not taken into account.

Again I do like finding out about how insignia and traditions came to be and passed in this case 5 Commando Hackle's colour and how its been interpreted.

This is a thoroughly interesting conversation.

cheers

Phill

NIC wrote:

Phillip Lockett wrote:

Just to clarify WWII commando's generally wore standard government regulated cloth titles ie embroidered red on black or dark blue felt with letter number stitching //////.

Yes that's right.
Initially each Commando Unit were designated colours - except No.5 Cdo who had already adopted the gold on green background (see my avatar).

Unfortunately my external HDD with all my Commando Files is broken, otherwise I could share the files and colours allocated to each unit - Light Blue, Red, Purple, Tartan (Depot) etc.
However the General Staff were not happy (they still resented the formation of the Commandos and seemed to be as obstructive as they possibly could) they wanted uniformity and stated that the shoulder titles should be the same across the Units.
'The powers that be' in the War Office had long discussions and eventually settled on the red on black/blue. There were still those in power who opposed this combination stating that it was too similar to the Royal Marine but Mountbatten pointed out that a precedent had already been set in that some of the Household Units already had that combinations and, anyway, HM The King, had shown a lot of interest in the Commandos and particularly this topic and had expressed his opinion that red on black/blue was a good one!

Fascinating stuff!

Nick

Again many thanks Nic

Indeed fascinating discussion on how the colours were selected and the various colour combo in the early days .

There were French troops in 4 commando would a unique colour been tolerated for the French troops in 4 Cdo the early days?

Below is a pic of Sgt Louis Lanternier with a White on Khaki France title above his standard issued 4 Cdo title Ouistreham 1944 , possibly they could of had a different title in the early period 1942 pre uniformity days?

Sorry for the speculation and I don't like doing it , its just that I know very little about commando organization , history and insignia, of which I will rectify!

cheers

Phill

Eileen wrote:Another interesting topic!

I'm interested in this one as I had my eye on this. I had my doubts so left it alone.

Therefore, it's probably 'right enough' and I've missed out. )

Gidday Eileen

My thoughts are it isn't a legit title for all the reasons above , but worthy of discussion.

Would like to know how Peter Taylor came across this style of title if no one else has? Surely there would of been members of 4 CDO that would vouched for this style back then?

Lets see how it pans out

Phill

Thanks Nic

No need to apologize, I like discussions on Insignia and of course the units. I'm here to learn.

Just to clarify WWII commando's generally wore standard government regulated cloth titles ie embroidered red on black or dark blue felt with letter number stitching //////.

I do take your point reproduction is just that whether 15 years or 70 years after the fact, where as a fake is made to deceive.

I have been alerted to paki made attempts but they are easy to detect.

If I find out either good or bad I will update this thread.

Much appreciated.

Phill