Messages posted by: anniesillitoe

Thanks NIC and Tempiz!

NIC, These look very interesting. I'll start looking through the links properly when I get a free moment!
(and I'm definitely not giving up!)

For anyone still following, last month I submitted a Freedom of Information request to the Ministry of Defence to see if they had any information related to the deaths of Arthur DOOLEY and Eric Hookway GIBSON. I've just received a response, and unfortunately it said:

"despite extensive searches across the Ministry of Defence I am unable to locate any information in relation to the deaths of Arthur DOOLEY or Eric Hookway GIBSON."

MOD have suggested I contact The Royal Marines Museum, which I've now done, however I assume they won't be able to provide much information based on my email enquiry... their website states they won't do research for enquirers (which is fair enough, and something I expected). Just a pity the MOD didn't hold anything of value.

To be honest I don't have much up online, because I want to get things right, and you need to have a lot of evidence to prove that ancestors are who they seem to be.
Also, because I am mostly focused on more recent history, I'd rather not put things online of family members who have living descendants within a generation, because I don't think it's appropriate without their support.

Even for Arthur, I asked quite a few family members if they minded me discussing him online. Even though none of them knew him, they are the children of his brothers and sisters, so I gave them the opportunity to weigh in on that decision. Luckily, the family who got back to me were happy for me to share his story with the hope that we could collect more information and develop a greater insight into his life, in addition to sharing with others and honouring his memory.

I've seen the site you sent before, but I don't remember seeing those downloads, so thank you for that!
If you give me a couple of weeks, I'll hunt down my research on the battalion war diaries from the National Archives a couple of years ago, and pull out what I can regarding their time at Achnacarry. Please remind me though! I'm on holidays soon, so will be able to get to it then.

I'm the historian for my two maternal lines (dad's mum and mum's mum).
Unfortunately you have to cherry-pick a couple of lines if you want to make any progress in any great depth. Luckily other family members are interested in some of the paternal lines.

I'm personally more interested in the recent history (early to mid 1800s is usually about where I'm comfortable stopping) where there's more detail to be found and I can get a good feel for people's lives.
I'd rather go 'wide' and find out about houses, clubs, schooling, occupations, step families, in-laws, friends etc. than try to go back as far as I can. I do try to get a solid line, but the trail gets messy unless the family was particularly prominent, and I'd rather have proven links than 'maybes'. I admire your mum's tenacity going backwards and making sure she has good evidence - it's difficult!

I'm also very interested in anyone in the family who didn't have descendants, which is one of the reasons Arthur is important to me.
I use Ancestry and FindMyPast from here, but there's nothing like going into the local archives and getting access to stuff that hasn't been digitised. I should also post in more forums as you never know who's reading...

Haha, not offended at all! After all, there aren't too many people in their 30s who do this stuff for fun :D

You didn't do too badly - you're only over by a decade :D
I sometimes get funny looks at genealogy events - I think they wonder where I left my grandma...

I'd be really interested to hear about Eric's service record when it arrives!

My grandmother (Arthur's sister) had a postcard of this memorial on her mantelpiece for as long as my dad can remember.
The 'Tribute Garden' is in the background on the right.

Reading the memorials in the tribute area.

Memorials from families and friends.

I made a small memorial for Arthur before leaving home without knowing there was an area like this to leave it, so it was a lovely surprise to find a nice home for it.
I visited the Normandy beaches on D-Day earlier that month and took a similar one for Arthur's brother (he landed on Sword Beach with 45RM), and also left one on the battlefield where my great-grandfather died in 1918 (Givenchy, Lancs Fusiliers). I'll organise a proper one next time I visit.

What a great photo!

I'm slightly envious that you live close enough to visit family graves though - I'm 14,000km away! Was your daughter interested in the story of Eric?

Arthur is buried with his sister, baby niece and father, and a few metres away from his mother. He has a CWGC headstone but the others don't have headstones at all, so we're organising them now.

Have you been to Achnacarry? I really enjoyed walking around the area (not the estate, unfortunately) and Fort William. Have you thought about putting a memorial at Spean Bridge? There are hundreds of plaques there, and it seems to be 'the' place to commemorate Commandos. I took some photos if you'd like to see them. I definitely want to get something special made for Arthur and leave it there when I visit next. This site has the preferred memorial 'standards' up somewhere (ie measurements, materials etc).

Thanks, Nick! I was hoping it was something wonderful but assuming it probably wasn't!!

Thanks, all! Such interesting insights.
I haven't finished listening to the interviews but I'm really enjoying them.
There was an old 2" mortar in the Achnacarry museum, and it was awful to see exactly what killed Arthur and Eric.

There are still a couple of things I'd like to figure out.
Arthur's service record has a box for D.N.A. Wills Number and there's a number in there.
I haven't found a mention of this anywhere - is this a will that may be stored somewhere? One of the interview overviews mentions that they were made to write wills... is this what it would be?

It seems the family may have wanted further information on Arthur's death as there's a page in his service record with a handwritten note dated 1950 that mentions that enquiries need to be made in a specific way. I'm having trouble reading it so will post a photo this afternoon to see if any of you have better luck. The family legend is very strong that someone was punished for Arthur's death, but unfortunately no one who was alive then has clear memories of it.

A bit more about Arthur...

I've been through Arthur's service record and extracted the following information:

Arthur DOOLEY EX/4045
Enlistment: 28 February 1940
Date of Death: 19 September 1943 (accident on duty)

Service:
HBL RM Brigade 28 February 1940 - 1 April 1940
HBL (RM Brigade) 2 April 1940 - 31 July 1943
HBL RM Commando 1 August 1943 - 19 September 1943 (DD) [Discharged Dead]

Promotions:
Lance Corporal 14 June 1943
Corporal (A/Ty) 1 August 1943

In 1940 he served in Dakar and Freetown as part of the 3rd Battalion.

There are quite a few Imperial War Museum interviews by men who were in the 3rd Battalion and then transferred to 44RM...
Below are some links to the interview that mention either 3rd Bn or 44RM, and a transcription I did of the part of John Adair Johnson's interview mentioning Arthur and his brother Stan, including Arthur's death.

Baker, Harold Charles Hill 'Bob (IWM interview)
British marine served with 44 Commando, Royal Marines in Arakan, Burma, 1944-1945
Catalogue number: 18521
Production date: 2000-02-11
http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80018946
Aspects of enlistment and training with Royal Marines in GB, 1941-1942: background to enlistment in Wolverhampton, 1941; reporting to depot at Exton, 11/11/1941; character of training at Lympstone; memories of Colour Sergeant Budd; selection procedure for signalers; signal training at Royal Marine Signals School, Saundersfoot. Period with 3rd Bn Royal Marines, 101 Bde in GB, 1942-1943: posting to unit; move to Shirley, Southampton. REEL 2 Continues: Aspects of period with 44 Commando in GB and India, 1943-1944: transformation of unit to commando role; commando training at Achnacarry...

Bell, Thomas Charles 'Dinger (IWM interview)
British NCO served with 44 Commando, Royal Marines in Arakan, Burma, 1944-1945
Catalogue number: 20309
Production date: 2000-05-10
http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80018883
Period with 3rd Bn Royal Marines in GB and during Dakar Raid, 1939-1941: opinion of quality of first batch of marines; belief that Germans would invade, summer 1940; memories of Dakar raid, 9/1940; background to how 3rd Bn became 44 Commando; attitude towards Dakar raid. Period with 44 Commando in GB and India, 1941-1944: character of commando course at Achnacarry; description of 'Me and my Pal' system; casualties during training; contrast between training and action; billeting system in Kent; problems of seeing wife and baby, 1943...

Parish, Kenneth Peter (IWM interview)
British officer served with 3rd Bn Royal Marines in GB, 1939-1943; served with 44 Commando, Royal Marines in India and Burma, 1943-1945
Catalogue number: 19920
Production date: 1999-12-15
http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80018438
Period with Royal Marines in GB, 1939-1940: joining marines, 11/1939; character of discipline; joining 3rd Battalion at Bisley, 1940; abortive raid on Dakar including preparations at Scapa Flow, poor security during operation, calling off of operation and return to GB; selection for commandos; training with 44 Commando at Achnacarry, 1943...

Webber, Alfred John (IWM interview)
British NCO served with 3rd Bn Royal Marines in GB, 1940-1943; served with 44 Commando, Royal Marines in India, Ceylon and Arakan, Burma, 1944-1945
Catalogue number: 20267
Production date: 2000-03-30
http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80018943
Recollections of period with D Coy, 3rd Bn Royal Marines during Dakar Raid and its aftermath, 9/1940-1/1941: orders to make wills at Plympton; relations with civilians and dockers in Liverpool; move to Scapa Flow. REEL 2 Continues: voyage from GB to Dakar aboard Sobieski; supposed role of marines in Dakar; move to Freetown after abortive raid, 9/1940- 1/1941; bugle call 'Letters from Lousy Lou'; sight of ocean liners in convoys at Freetown; move to Gibraltar, 1/1941; character of period in Gibraltar; description of term 'short arm inspection'; return to GB. Aspects of training with 3rd Bn Royal Marines in GB, 1941-1943: training to Stobb's Camp near Hawick; exercises at Inverary and visit by Winston Churchill; reaction to sinking of HMS Hood, 5/1941; exercise at Scapa Flow. REEL 3 Continues: move to camp at Velindre; character of Exercise Berwyn; entertainments at Velindre; move to Shirley near Southampton; promotion to sergeant and move to B Coy; exercises on Isle of Wight; operating PIAT; practical joke played on Canadian NCO, 1943; flax-pulling role at Haverfordwest, 1943. Period with 44 Commando in GB and India, 1943-1944: formation of unit; training at Achnacarry; accommodation at Achnacarry; move to Folkstone-Hythe area...

Johnson, John Adair (IWM interview)
British NCO served with 44 Commando, Royal Marines in GB, India and Arakan, Burma, 1943-1945
Catalogue number: 20516
Production date: 2000-07-17
http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80019232
Recollections of training with Royal Marines in GB, 1942-1943: training at Lympstone; posting to 3rd Bn Royal Marines; transfer to commandos; reception at Spean Bridge; arrival at Achnacarry; coping with commando course and promotion to sergeant; death of Arthur Dooley in mortar accident; running the Dark Mile at Achnacarry. REEL 2 Continues: post- war visits to Achnacarry; attending Spean Bridge commando memorial. Period with 44 Commando, Royal Marines in GB, 1943...

TRANSCRIPT of JOHN ADAIR JOHNSON (From Reel 1, approx 25.00 mark)
When we marched into the camp there were graves with headstones on them, with various Commandos that had died by being stupid in the country, you know. But at that time it looked real, you know. And the one thing I always regard Scotland as good for was that when we got there it was raining, or whatever you call it, Scotch Mist, and by the time we'd finished it had never stopped raining. Which meant that the weather was cool, and as a result, I can march anybody in the unit off their feet because they got no blisters.
I'd been a PTI, physical training instructor with the Liverpool clubs, boys' clubs, so I was fit and I was agile, and I got a good report, and I was good up in the trees and on the death-slide as they used to call it. Cross country, speed marching, I was good on that. And as a result, when the course was finished, I learned I'd been promoted Sergeant. So we went down to Folkstone from Spean Bridge.

Oh, incidentally, I don't know whether it's of interest... I had a brother-in-law called Stan Dooley, who was in Number 5 Battalion and then transferred into 45 Royal Marine Commando. And his brother, Arthur Dooley, was in our unit, with us at Spean Bridge, Achnacarry. And at that particular time they were experimenting with two-inch mortar bombs, and with a two inch mortar bomb you always had a little team, two men. One feeds the bomb into the thing and the other works out the distances, because it was only an elementary type of thing, but it was very accurate once you got used to it, you know.

And Arthur Dooley and his mate are on the bomb, on the two-inch mortar, and Arthur Dooley's lying alongside it. That was his job, to lie alongside it. And what was happening, he was the ninth actually. What was happening, the bombs were exploding in the barrel before they took off. And of course Arthur was killed. Now in those days, before an enquiry was set up over the deaths, there had to be ten men killed. And Arthur Dooley was the ninth. But they didn't have any more because they stopped it then. They realised it overstepped the mark. And I had a bit of a fight, I was hoping I could bring the body home because at that time my wife's sister was courting Stan Dooley, his brother. And I thought if I could accompany the body home I could see the family and all that, but there was another scouser in the unit who was senior to me, a fella called Ginger Rankins, and he got the job [unintelligible] I don't know whether he's still alive.

Nick, it will be exciting when you see Eric's service record and find out where he was beforehand. Perhaps you'll find a photo from his marines days.

Peter, I believe quite a few men died in training but not sure of the figures.
I visited the museum on the Achnacarry site and they were excited to hear about Arthur because they always told people that men died in training but never had specific stories about them.

A wonderful photo!
I wish I had a photo of Arthur as a child.
Luckily I have a number of him as an adult, and even a couple of him as a marine before his commando training.

Hi Nick,
You have to apply through the Ministry of Defence with proof of ID to access the WW2 records. As Arthur also didn't have any offspring, my uncle was next of kin so he signed the paperwork for me from England. I don't live in the UK so it was also difficult getting cheques in sterling, so my uncle helped me out with that too. It takes time, but is worth it.
I'll dig out Arthur's service record this week.
It certainly sounds like they died of accidental (or malicious) causes rather than anything else. I wrote a letter to one of the other commandos who was training with them (he's a distant relative also) and was there when Arthur and Eric died. He kindly wrote back to me but couldn't give me much more info. He was one of the guys who mentions the incident in Imperial War Museum interviews.

I'm also keen to get a memorial into the memorial garden at Spean Bridge so you may be interested in doing that for Eric too.

Private Message me with your email address and I'll send you what I have.

Hi Nick,
Great to hear from you! I was hoping one day to get in touch with a relative of Eric's.
I have copies of the battalion war diaries from the days around when Eric and Arthur were killed, so I'll have a search and get back to you.
Lots of info about the training exercises they were doing in their last days and what the troops did in the days after. I found it both fascinating and bittersweet.
I haven't been able to rustle up any more info of what exactly happened (official records), but I have Arthur's service record so will have another look as I think there was a lead in there that I didn't have time to follow up at the time.
Will definitely be back in touch!