Messages posted by: Derek Hill

Pete wrote:The P does not in itself stand for Royal Marines. The prefixes PO, PLY, CH, and EX do but as with the RN and RM numbers they have changed over the years. Here is some useful information about such numbers:

Royal Navy numbers
http://www.godfreydykes.info/ROYAL%20NAVY%20OFFICIAL%20NUMBERS%20%5BRATINGS%5D.htm

Royal Marines numbers
https://www.rmhistorical.com/images/RM%20Register%20Numbers.pdf

Was the number should be on the correspondence you received in your first application?

So, I have been looking into this a lot and doing a great deal of research. I have been able to confirm beyond doubt the above Royal Marines Numbers guide is not 100% accurate. It applies to most Royal Marines but certainly not all. There are several other instances of different official numbers for serving RM?s during WW2. Whilst I now believe my fathers RM number most likely began PO/X my research proves it could also have been PX, or even FX for that matter.
Don?t take my word for it, just spend an age ploughing through the CWGC lists for WW2 as well as the RN archive ROH.
I?ve also been able to ascertain that Royal Marines did indeed serve aboard aircraft carriers during WW2. I assumed he was aboard them whilst in the FAA, but clearly he could have been a Marine instead.
Finally with the much valued assistance of a military historian, I am told the group photo in the jungle is most definitely of Royal Marines, despite the varied uniform and as such almost certainly of men in the 3rd SS Brigade.
I post this merely as an aid to anyone who like me is struggling to learn more about a persons confusing military history.

Is there any info from Chris Bennett about the group photo's? Specifically names for the one on page 1titled No. 42 Commandos Troop A Royal Marines? I think my father may be in it.

Agreed, thanks. It was a rushed reply on my part.
War service records seem almost impossible to get.
I have his RN which is inaccurate and very incomplete, and they admitted as much!
No reply from RM or Army, but I doubt he has an army record anyway.
Just sent a new application to RM but apparently they are now taking over a year.
I was just hoping to link him to something or someone on here but I guess not.
He was a member of the association but even they never replied to my enquiries. I tried a different email address today but I don?t expect they?ll reply.
Many thanks for your input though, much appreciated.

[quote=craig summerhill]Royal Marines were only loaned to the commandos and were demobbed from their respective division at the end of the war/ hostilities. [/quote]

RM?s weren?t loaned as such, they were an integral part of the brigades. The four brigades were deliberately comprised of two army commando and two RM commando units for the purposes of sharing experience, expertise and not least of all, harmony.

Thanks for the replies. It?s a real can of worms. We know more or less exactly where and when he served and on which operations, even some of the ships.
We know he was initially an Army commando as they all were regardless of which service they came from.
He was definitely a RM later on and served with 3rd SS Brigade/3rd Commando Brigade in Burma in 42 RM Commando during the 1944/45 Arakan campaign. He was also with 44 RM Commando on coastal hit & run raids there. He was very badly wounded during the Battle of Hill170 and sent to the military hospital in Trincomalee to recover.
We know he was never a RN Commando (they were formed long after he enlisted) nor anything to do with signals, comm?s etc.
What I?m trying to get info on is his transition from RN to army commando and then the RM. it would be nice to know more officially but as the RN replied to me a long time ago ?Proper record keeping was not a priority during the emergency?. It?s also a tragedy the Army commandos destroyed all records at the end of the war.
It would be great to get some informed feedback on the photos if anyone has anything to offer?

Typically I can?t find the article in the Royal Navy Research Archive but I did come across this on Wikipedia. It is exactly the same text which suggests one site borrowed it from the other. The actual RNRA article though also stated that F = Fleet Air Arm, which my father initially enlisted with, doing both his basic training and aircraft mechanic training at RNAS Lee On Solent (HMS Daedalus).
His original service number was F105984. He told me when he joined the commandos, all that changed was the first letter, from an F to a P. The information I found with the RNRA certainly supports what he told me. He also told me recruits for hazardous service were actively being sought from the Royal Navy, especially the FAA, and that appealed to him so he asked to transfer and was accepted straight away.

From what I have read during extensive research, it would seem he became a Commando qualified Royal Marine, as opposed to a Royal Marines Commando as I believe they did not yet exist.

Don said he served with 6 & 3 Commando. I believe his first operation was called Kitbag and he was conveyed by submarine. He said it was uneventful which supports what actually took place, or rather didn?t.
I think he was then on Operation Archery with either 3 or 6 Commando. He told me a lot of Commandos were killed and injured on his raid so that in itself points to it having been Archery, as others of the time were successful and without loss.
Sorry, I?ve gone off on a tangent now. Here?s the link:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_number#United_Kingdom

Quote: In the Royal Navy, prior to the introduction of JPA, service numbers were also of eight digits but began and ended with a letter, depending initially on the depot where the sailor was recruited. The first letter designators were: P (Portsmouth), C (Chatham), and D (Devonport), with the final letter being a meaningless checksum.[clarification needed] Later, the designators were reassigned and were used to distinguish between men and women within the Royal Navy as well as to distinguish between Officers and Ratings. A service number beginning with D designated a Royal Navy male Rating, W a Royal Navy female Rating, C male Officers, and V female Officers. P designated a Royal Marines Other Rank, while N a Royal Marine Officer. Following the introduction of JPA, all newly issued Royal Navy service numbers became an eight-digit number format beginning with 3, with no distinction made between male, female, Ratings, Officers, and Royal Marines.

Yes I?ve read those, but I also read a lot of info on service numbers on the Royal Navy History Archive site which states quite clearly that in those years the P was most definitely the prefix given to Royal Marine other ranks. I think it stated N denoted RM officers.
I?ll try and find the link and post it.

Pete wrote:Hi Derek
I have updated your email address on your original profile. The number you posted for your Father is a Royal Navy official number (later called service number). The photos are interesting in that there are quite a mix. Not all Royal Marines were Commandos in WW2 with many serving as Royal Marines on board Royal Navy ships so this could be the connection with the Royal Marines. Additionally with Combined Operations in existence many of the services operated in support of each other during many of the major seaborne landings in WW2. Certainly his uniform in the one dated May 1944 is Royal Navy. However the RN also had RN Commandos. The new application for his complete official record is the right way forward.

That's true, the P stands for Royal Marines. After he transferred he went straight to do his Commando training at Achnacarry before it was formally the CBTC. I know his parent service was always the RN, but clearly he was posted to various units throughout his service, quite common I have read.
He always said his home port was Portsmouth so its possible his number was PO/X105984, but he never mentioned the O. I have just reapplied for his service record but only put PX..., not PO/X... Do you think they'll search for both or do I need to be specific?
The badge photo should appear below, ignore the red background.

I believe Don took these photo's. One is helpfully labelled but shows no date. I have no info on the group photo. The original is heavily over-exposed. It is possibly in Colombo around VJ Day.
If anyone can supply information on the group photo (or the other one) I'd love to hear more.

The only two informal photo's I have of him in the Far East. Dates and locations unknown.

Here are the first three photo's of Don.

Thanks for the replies. Service number is in the subject line.
I?ve persuaded my mother (his widow) to sign the application for request for service information to the Royal Marines. The last one was way back in 2004 so fingers crossed.
I?ll put some photos up when I get time, hopefully the weekend.
I have his combined operations badge, the RN version of gold on dark blue, and some of his photos from that time but sadly nothing else.
(Why does the forum system change an apostrophe to a question Mark?)

Hi all, I first joined the forum back in 2012 whilst researching the above, my father, but hit a wall and just never got anywhere. Plus back then I was PC illiterate for sure (not much better now lol).
Now a young relative has contacted me asking about his grandads war service so it's galvanised me to do more research. I forgot I had registered before until I registered again a few days ago and came across a couple of old PM's.

I really don't know where to start so this seems the most logical place. From family stories all we know is that he joined the RN in August 1940 when he turned 16 lying about his age. Did his basic training and Fleet Air Arm Aircraft Mechanic training in just a few weeks at HMS Daedalus (RNAS Lee On Solent). Then joined the Royal Marines and trained at Achnacarry before it was the properly established Commando Training Centre. He served with 3 Commando; 6 Commando; 3rd SS Brigade most likely in 42 RM Commandos but I think he must also have seen action with 41 RM Commando in Salerno and 44 RM Commando doing coastal assaults in Burma. Believed to have been badly wounded during Battle of Hill170.

On leaving hospital in Trincomalee he joined FAA again and served on HMS Illustrious in TF57 when it was hit by Kamikaze. How is that possible, RM to FAA again?
He took part in two raids on Norway, possibly Operation Kitbag, he said he was on a submarine and hated it but nothing happened? and Operation Archery; Operation Chariot, Operation Flodden (part of Jubilee I think), served in North Africa with 8th Army from second battle of El Alamein, Operation Avalanche (Salerno landings, possibly from HMS Rodney?), then bizarrely took part if a transatlantic convoy on HMS Biter with 811 Squadron as an aircraft mechanic, how? Then re-joined Royal Marines and went to India, Ceylon then Burma but after 3rd Commando Brigade has already left the UK, so no idea how he caught them up.
He says he took part in VJ celebrations in Colombo, Ceylon and took lots of photos of the local festivities which I have. In fact I have a number of photo's he took during the war, including when he met George Formby and his wife in the Far East as part of ENSA.

Through very extensive research online I have been able to associate his brief anecdotes to historical events but unfortunately I have no official documentation on his service. I have a very brief record from the Royal Navy who have him enlisting when he was over 18, more than two years after he said he joined up. I tried RM and Army records too but they never replied.
I know he was a member of the then Commando Association up to 1979 because I saw a letter from them inviting him to Lord Mountbatten's funeral and offering to send a car to pick him up, but past enquiries with them led to no record of him. I think I know why but I wont go into that here.
So, I don't expect miracles, but if anyone has any information where his name may have cropped up on anything in the past, I'd love to hear from you.
I would also like to post some photo's which may be helpful to others but have yet to figure that out.

Hi, I recall my father telling me that when he joined the RN in 1941 or 42 he was given a service number which began with an F, but when he later transfered to the army commandos the first letter changed to a P, the rest remained unchanged.
Is anyone able to verify this practice please?
I assume from this then that my father may have two service records?

First photo of George Formby and unknown others. Sorry, date and location also unknown.