Messages posted by: Jack Bakker

I agree with Nick on this. To me the hole in the helmet on the left has been caused by shrapnel. The hole in the second helmet from the right might be a bullet hole. I can't see any holes in the other helmets. There is one with a black blur on it, but to me that isn't a hole made by a bullet or otherwise. It might be some spoiled ink.

Just like Pete I also think that the helmets are British. When you enlarge them enough it is clear to see that they are completely round at the rim, were as the American helmet had another shape at the rim.

Nick,

I don't think "your general" is "Windy" Gale, who is taller and a bit slimmer than your general. Besides that, I have never seen photos of Gale wearing a cap. He is/was always wearing a beret as far as I know.

Update on the search for the people on the photo: no results whatsoever! Even the call for information in a nation wide newspaper has brought nothing at all. I am now in contact with a radio and television broadcast company. They are very interested in it all.

One very interesting thing that has come forward is the contact with a man from Bergen op Zoom who has witnessed the shooting of Joseph. In a letter he told that on the 2nd of June 1945, there was a row on the Big Market Place in the centre of Bergen op Zoom. French Commandos were involved, as well as other soldiers. A lot of shouting was going on. All of a sudden, Dutch marines came storming from a street, weapons at the ready. After some more shouting, a shot was fired by one of the marines and a soldier fell down. The next day, shocked as he was by the shooting and even more by the fact that a soldier, a libarator of his country, was shot by another soldier, he went to the mortuary to pay his respect. There he saw the soldier and together with a nun prayed for the tall, handsome young man as he discribed him.

I have put this forward to the family of Joseph and the given discription was confirmed as fitting to all the Ball men in the family. It will take too far to write down the whole story told by the man, but to me it is more than confirmed that he saw Joseph. What he told fits in perfectly with the other information I have gained in the process, coming for instance from the police reports of that day.

At the end of June family of Joseph will visit his grave in Bergen op Zoom for the first time ever. The man mentioned is willing to meet them and talk about what he saw which is, in his own words, as clear in his mind as if it happend yesterday. So even if there is no result on the photo so far, I am more than happy with this result. Let alone the family.

I get your drift Pete: you could send the photos of the youngs girls and two children to Le Plein to try and find out who they are and if they are (hopefully) still alive. It did happen with the two boys on the photo in Kamperland just recently. It could be an idea to send them to the Town Hall or something like that. Perhaps there are people who know the girls and the children.

Concerning the photo of the Kamperland boys. I have been in contact again with the man from the historical section of Beveland and he has had an interview with Rien Koole, one of the boys on the photo (the left one). When he has finished writing the things Rien Koole told him, he will send it to me. Koole didn't have many photos of the war. There is also contact with the widow of Piet de Haze.

I have just phoned with Gerard de Fouw, the historical man of Noord Beveland. Next week he will pay a visit to Rien Koole who lives in Goes. He will have an interview with Koole which will be recorded and he will make photos. He will send me those to put on this site. He will bring me in contact with Koole as well.

Gerard told me that the left one of the two boys on the photo is Rien Koole, so on the right is Piet de Haze. He has died and he lived in Eindhoven. Koole has told Gerard that Commandos of 47 Commando RM were billeted with the family De Haze and that they sometimes came home from raids with small souveniers for the girls in the family. Koole told that the man behind him and De Haze is the Troop Captain.

Dear Julie,

Thank you very much for all your effort!
I was surprised that there wasn't anything on the death of Joseph Ball in the War Diary. You might expect that there would be something there as this happened after the war in Europe had ended, and so it was something out of order so to speak. I had hopes that the diary would reveal something about the circumstances, as I have found nothing about it the several Dutch archives I went through.

In a police report I found there was mention of a big fight between French Commandos and men from the Dutch Navy on the evening of the 2nd to the 3rd of June 1945 at 10.15 hours. The fight took place on the Big Square in the centre of Bergen op Zoom. (On this square Joseph was shot by a trigger happy Dutch soldier, according to a witness in the book on No 4 Commando by James Dunning). The streets to the square were cordoned off by the police in order to prevent people going there. A 30 men strong patrol cleared the square. In the police report, a patrol of the Dutch Navy later told a police officer that three Frenchmen were killed and several wounded during the fight.

The strange thing is that I found nothing about all this in old newspapers, nor in the archives of the Dutch Military Government at that time, nor in any other source. Nothing about Joseph being killed by a trigger happy Dutch soldier, noting about the fight, nothing about three dead and several wounded. I contacted the French Militairy Attache in The Hague about the French dead. They came back saying that in Holland there are no French soldiers buried who were killed on that date. In a post on the forum, Peter Cooper, the son of Dennis Cooper of No 4 Commando, tells that he remembers his father telling him that Joseph was stabbed and killed by a Dutch resistance fighter. Nothing found on that either.

My theory is that the big fight was the result of the stabbing of Joseph by a Dutch resistance fighter. (Who by the witness in Jimmy Dunning's book was taken for a Dutch soldier. This I can understand as the Dutch resistance at that time wore all sorts of equipement and could easily be taken for a soldier. Besides that, parts of the resistance were in the proces of becoming regular troops). I think (theory!) that the French heard of all this and came to the big square and that in the meantime Dutch Navy men were there as well and than the big fight started. In it shots were fired to disperse the people on the square and that might be picked up as Joseph being shot. The question that arises is: where there any dead Frenchmen at all? Has the patrol seen the three dead they spoke about themselves or just heard about it? And from whom? And has that witness seen the three dead or heard about it as well? And so on and so forth.

So I think that the exact circumstances of Joseph Ball's death will forever remain a mistery of some sort.

The circumstances of his death are and were not the main target. That was and still is the photo with the people standing at his grave. There is still no news about that. This Saturday a call for information, together with the photo, was published in one of the biggest national newspapers in Holland. Hopefuly this will bring something. Contacts with local history groups and even a call on a website of one of them, has generated nothing so far. There are two more calls for information in the process of being published in magazines that cover The Netherlands.

The only thing I know so far is from a message from the CWGC. They told that Joseph was intially buried at the German Kriegersfriedhof (cemetery) and that his body was transferred to the British War Cemetery on 15 July 1946. According to a archive I saw, the location of the Kriegersfriedhof was at the same spot as where the British cemetery is now. The German bodies were all transferred to a place called IJsselstein in Holland.

I have of course informed the family of Joseph, Julia Thorn and her brother Nigel Ball, about all this. As they knew nothing about their uncle Joseph, they are very pleased by what has come up until now. Both Julia and Nigel, together with a daughter of him, will visit Joseph's grave in Bergen op Zoom at the end of May this year. They will be there for the first time and in doing so will fulfill the wish of their father, Joseph's brother, who wanted to go there years ago but he died at a very young age.

The two boys on the photo of X TRoop of 47 Commando Royal Marines in Kamperland, were found within a week. I hope something like that will happen with the people on the photo at the grave of Joseph in due course.

I have contacted the radio station mentioned in the articles. They told me that they had phoned around and in doing so came in contact with nephews of Piet de Haze. They told that Piet has died.

Which means that I understood the text in the articles and the interview on the radio wrong. The text in the articles I sent is wrong in the sense that NOT Piet de Haze contacted the radio station within half an hour after the first broadcast, but Rien Koole did. No wonder that Piet de Haze wasn't the least surpised by it all.... )

Sorry guys!

:D :D

On the first photo of the second link in Pete's post, left of the man in the bare chest, a German Sturmgewehr 44 (Stg 44) can be seen. On the second photo the man in the middle is holding the Sturmgewehr.

See this link for more info on the rifle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StG_44

*** updated by Pete R. 22/12/12 Link to the photo Jack refers to : **** http://www.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/Royal+Marine+Commando+Units/46/aller+crossing.jpg.html

At 16:28 on the film a machine gun is towed behind two men. See this link for comparrison.

http://www.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/HQ+and+Sigs/Emmerson+photos/58.jpg.html

Peter,

This is a story I haven't found in any archive or report so far. I am not surpised to be honest. When there is no mention about a big fight in which apperently three people were killed, I don't suppose there will be something there about this incident. That is why the war diary of No 4 Commando becomes more and more important, as I suppose that the fight but surely the incident you mentioned must be in there.

Or is there a mix up in facts? Was Joseph Ball not killed by a trigger happy Dutch soldier on the 2nd/3rd of June 1945, but was he the man stabbed and killed by the Dutch resistance men? Could be, as the big fight was between French Commandos and members of the Dutch Navy.

Can you recall if your father told anything about the date the stabbing incident happend?

I noticed that your father was in 1 Troop. Joseph Ball was as well! Do you perhaps have photos of the Troop with the names of the men on them? Photos from the time in Bergen op Zoom or before that. Photos were Joseph Ball could be on. I am asking this as Julia Thorn and her brother NIgel Ball have no photo at all.

Interesting that the War Diary of 4 Commando comes up!

As you will know I am still in the process of finding out who the people are on the photo at the grave of Joseph Ball of No 4 Commando. Please see the topic with his name. In the book The Fighting Fourth by Jimmy Dunning it says that Joseph was killed on the 3rd of June 1945 by a trigger happy Dutch soldier.

My investigations have revealed that this happend on the evening of the 2nd to the 3rd of June at 10.15 pm at the Grote Markt (the Big Square/Big Market Place) in Bergen op Zoom. At that specific time there was a big fight between French Commandos and members of the Dutch Navy. A witness at that time stated that three men were killed (so apperently not only Joseph!) and that several were wounded. A patrol of 30 men dispersed the people on the square and the police cordoned it off to prevent people going there. Today I did a search in an other archive and found a paper which confirmed the above.

This is all the archives have revealed so far. No names of the men killed, of which Jospeh was presumeably/apperently one; nothing about the reason for the fight; nothing about it in the newspapers of that week in June 1945; nothing found in the archives of the Military Court at that time of a conviction of the shooter; nothing found in the archive of the military who were in charge in Bergen op Zoom at that time. There were messages of unattended bicycles and even a goat on the loose, but nothing about something serious as this. And helas, still no names to people on the photo.

With the latest edition of Despatches, Geoff Murray has sent a short letter of mine with the photo of the burial of Joseph and the photo of his grave with the people, to the last surviving veterans of No 4 Commando. Perhaps they know more of it all and can perhaps identify the sergeant on it and/or the people. Or perhaps themselves or others on the photo of the actual burial.

The War Diary of No 4 Commando must be the best source of all on this I suppose. I know that No 4 went to Germany shortly after the 8th of May 1945 and that it had French Commandos under its command. But what is shortly after the 8th? A month later? Earlier? And if they had already left, why were Joseph and the French still there? As a rear party perhaps? More questions than answers!
Julie W has already offered me to have a look at the War Diary of No 4 when she visits the National Archives again (thank you Julie!), but every other help is much appriciated! The archives of the British Military Police may be a lead as I read that they were there. The MP of the RAF was named! Perhaps Nic can help on that one?

The search isn't over until it is over, so I bash on regardless!

This "clever" clog perhaps? On the tray on the desk it says "Schmier papier" which is German for scratch paper. So he must be in Germany.

Hi Mark,

Perhaps you already know and have seen it as well, but here is a link to a photograph of the headstone of your great uncle Harold on the Bergen op Zoom war cemetery. I live close by so if you would like me to pay a visit for any occasion, just let me know.

Regards,

Jack

http://www.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/Commando+War+Graves+Memorials+and+Plaques/graves/War+graves+Holland/bergen+op+zoom/47rm/plank+hh++47rm.jpg.html

Hi Mark,

I had a good look at the badges the men wear on their berets and quite honestly I don't think they are Marines but more likely men from the Tank Regiment. The badge of the Tank Regiment has the WW1 model tank in the middle of it which shows as some sort of a bar in the badge, if you know what I mean. Besides that, the sergeant on the left is wearing what looks like a coverall which was the type of clothing they used inside a tank as far as I know. When you compare the badge they wear with the badge shown on the caps of the three Marines on the other photo you have posted, then the difference is clear to see I think.

Regards,

Jack