Sergeant John Thomas Lund R.M. Po.X. 1315 - 48 RM Commando

Hello,

I'm researching my paternal grandfather, John Thomas Lund, born 9 December 1915 in Mexborough, Yorkshire.
He married my grandmother in 1938, my dad was born in Soberton, Hampshire in 1940 and his sister born in 1941.
He and my grandmother went their separate ways around 1942 and both remarried later.
John died in Chatham in 1992.

As my dad grew up with my grandmother, we know very little about John, however, when searching for him in forces war records, there are only five John Lund's of the correct age serving in WW2 and only one listed as John Thomas Lund.

John's unit is given as 48 RM Commando and he is mentioned, alongside others, in despatches on 13 March 1945 "For good services while operating with the 21st Army Group" as "Sergeant (Acting Temporary Quartermaster Sergeant) John Thomas Lund, R.M., Po.X. 1315 (Mexborough)"

I think the chances of this man being my grandfather are pretty high, so I'm wondering about further ways to ID him, to find out whether he is my grandfather or not. I'm not sure we would necessarily be able to access his service records as next of kin, unless I can prove he is! It certainly sounds like he was someone to be proud of.

He was a Sergeant so I wonder if there is a list anywhere of sergeants?
Is there as significance to his army number - does it give a clue to which troop he was with? I saw that there is a photo of 48 Commando X troop, so he could be one of the men in the picture!

If anyone has any other ideas or information I would be really grateful. Because of his split with my grandmother we never knew much about him at all. Ironically we know much more about his father (my great-grandfather) than we do about John.

Thank you,
Cat Lund

Hi Cat,
Welcome to the CVA Website and Forums.

I notice that you have tried the online genealogy site Forces War Records. I do hope that you didn't waste too much money to find out that Forces War Records may not have your grandfather's records!

You see the ONLY custodian for WWII service records is the MoD. Despite all the false claims that Forces War Records make - they do not hold full records. They may have built up a database of names but most of that is taken from the questions you have to fill in on your initial search...
Once you have taken the bait you sign up for a 12 month subscription only to find out they don't have any information - other than what you've told them - and the rest they assume ( ie he would have qualified for the 39 - 45 Star etc)

But the good news is that, as a blood relative, you can apply to the MoD for a scan of your grandfather's original, handwritten service record.

The first thing you need is a death certificate - now I understand that you probably won't have a copy of this, however, you can apply for a copy from this site:

https://www.gov.uk/order-copy-birth-death-marriage-certificate

Having got a copy you are now in a position to apply to the MoD.
Hopefully the Death Cert will confirm that the John Lund who died in Chatham is your grandfather, in which case you know he was in the Royal Marines and therefore you need to fill in these two forms and send them off with a one off fee of £30...

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/711147/20180524-request_service_details_NOK_part1_v6.2.pdf

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/711157/request_for_service_details_rnrm_application_part2__1_.pdf

The first of these two forms helps you identify who is the next of kin - you will see that it is quite a simple process and, in fact, your father may still work out to be Next of Kin...

As for the rest, I would wait until you've got the service records when you've got some positive information to work on. Once you've got these foundations you can build up your search and come up with definite answers to your questions.

In the meantime, if we can help you in any matter, please add to this thread and we'll do our best to help...

Good luck,

Nick

Cat

It definitely sounds like the right person.In addition to what Nick has said, he may have joined the R.M.A. You could try contacting the them, ie. the Royal Marines Association, to seek if he did and ask their advice.

Tel: 02392 651519
Email: [email protected]

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 19/01/2019 12:08:03

Hi Nic and Pete

Thank you for your replies, and so quickly too :)

NIC wrote:
I notice that you have tried the online genealogy site Forces War Records. I do hope that you didn't waste too much money to find out that Forces War Records may not have your grandfather's records!

Don't worry, we've only spent a tenner, and it was worth it to discover John's service number and unit, which we had not been able to find up until we tried FWR. But I agree they are a bit of a rip off so we've cancelled now :)

NIC wrote:
But the good news is that, as a blood relative, you can apply to the MoD for a scan of your grandfather's original, handwritten service record.

The first thing you need is a death certificate

We do have the death cert, so we know that the John Thomas Lund who died in Chatham is definitely our grandfather; what we can't confirm, is if he is the John Thomas Lund serving in 48 commando, but it does seem likely, as we've scoured the records for all people of that name and he is the only one possible! However, how do we prove they are the same person in order to apply for the records from the MOD? Or doesn't it matter?!

We'll definitely ask Dad to complete the forms and see if we can get the records :)

Is there any way we can figure out what troop he was in?

Thanks again
Cat

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 19/01/2019 12:43:57

Hi Cat,

So to answer your last question first! :D
I wouldn't worry too much about which troop he was in - it was common for them to move from one troop to another, within the Commando unit, especially on promotion.
The idea is that if someone was to get promoted and remain with his friends and contemporaries in the same troop, it may be 'difficult' for him to, overnight, turn into the guy who gives the orders and sends his best friend 'over the top' to, what could be, certain death!
Move him into a different troop, within the Unit, where he is not with his closest friends and it saves any awkwardness and/or putting the newly promoted person in a difficult position.

This still holds true within the Armed Forces these days...

So, a RM Commando (Unit) was organised along War Establishment lines conforming to those Commando (Units) already raised by the Army.

This consisted of the Cdo HQ, Signal Section, Admin Section, five fighting troops [A, B, X, Y and Z] ? named after the big gun turrets on capital ships ? plus a Heavy Weapons Troop [S Troop].
The nominal strength of a fighting troop was three officers and sixty five other ranks.
Each troop contained two sections, each further divided into two sub-sections.
The Heavy Weapons Troop had two officers and forty other ranks, armed with two Vickers machine-guns and two 3-inch mortars. (These weapons were doubled in number after the D-Day landings).

I have attached a graphic of a Commando Unit which should make things clearer - for a Royal Marine Commando unit, just change the Troop numbers to the letters A, B, X, Y, Z & S...

So applying to the MoD - as long as you enter his full name and Date of Birth on the second of the two forms I sent ( Search Document Application Pt 2 - Royal Navy/Royal Marine Specific) then you don't have to worry about the rest - in fact I wouldn't include the service number you've got from FWR - in case that isn't your grandfather. :?

Send that, together with the Next of Kin form, the copy of his Death Cert and the £30 fee to the address on the form.

As I said, the MoD are THE ONLY custodians of WWII Service Records, so although you have found five J. T. Lunds on the FWR, the MoD may have many, many more! :shock:

The FWR, and other online sites of that ilk, only have information that has been given to them - unwittingly, by people like yourselves who are conducting searches.
These sites do not have access to the MoD records...

Once you've got your grandfather's records back from MoD then we have a foundation to build on... :wink:

Nick

Thanks again Nick :)
The only reason I was wondering what troop he was in was because there's a photo of 48 Commando X troop in the gallery :)

Thanks very much for the information as it helps to understand the Commando setup - we're air force brats ourselves so don't understand the other services, lol

Having spoken to my Dad earlier he confirms his dad was a Royal Marine Commando stationed at Eastleigh, but doesn't remember much else. So I'm sure John Thomas is our grandfather - now to follow up with the records requests.
Cat :)

Hi Cat,

Ermm, I'm ex-RAF :D

Well if your dad says your granddad was a 'Royal' then it certainly makes sense - especially as you know he was buried at Chatham.

Do you know what your GF looked like? Do you have any photos? if 'no' to either question then the photo in the Gallery isn't going to help you! :D
It is possible he was in X Troop at one stage but if he was Acting Quartermaster Sgt then he's have been in the HQ Troop at that stage...
However, no matter what Troop he was in, or indeed what appointment he held, his primary duty was that of a commando - an elite fighting soldier/marine - any other position/appointment was considered as a 'secondary duty'.

:)

Nick

Thanks once again for all your help.
It was great to have that conversation with dad although ultimately not that much help - as I think I mentioned in my OP, dad wasn't brought up by his father so we've little to go on in terms of family history, and he certainly wouldn't recognise him.

My aunt probably knows as much as anyone as she has the family photo repository and there may be a photo of him in there, but she's never mentioned it or produced it.

So you see, whilst I take your point about the photo in the gallery not helping as we don't know what he looked like, if he is in that photo then it may well be the only photo we have of him.

That's why I'm so keen to find out where he was.... which brings us back to the records, so that's definitely the next step. I'm happy to share the info once we've got his records.

Cat

You might be interested to have the Gazette record, attached
Cat

Hi Cat,

Don't worry, that photo will always be there... :D

Did your grandfather come from Mexborough in South Yorkshire?

Thanks for the Supplement from the London Gazette - that was my next port of call...

Again, they are always useful for research purposes :)

Now the next question is, do you know the history of the Royal Marine Commandos and when they were actually formed?

Nick

Hi Nick.

Re the photo - good to know!

Yes he was from Mexborough.
His dad was a marksman for the King?s Own Yorkshire Light Infantry in WW1.

We're speculating that John may have been a career soldier. He can't be found in the 1939 register, which may indicate that he was already serving - or at sea, or out of the country.
He married our grandmother in Liverpool in 1938, and our Dad was born in Soberton (Portsmouth) in 1940, so he got about the country a bit. My grandmother's family were in the merchant navy, so I suppose it's possible that's how they met.

We've done a lot of research into our family history and got quite a long way up, down and sideways. Unfortunately there's this huge gap after 1911, and if members of a family are estranged or dead then there's no oral history to fall back on.

Regarding what we know about the Commandos, bits and pieces, and we'd love to know more obviously now we have this info about John. We've been researching 48 Commando since we found him, we know they fought at Juno Beach on D-Day and then were part of Operation Infatuate to capture Walcheren island.

Cat

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 19/01/2019 21:28:31

Here's what I've put together so far, for John's life story for his Ancestry profile - edited as I find more info!

John Thomas Lund was born on 9 December 1915 in Mexborough, Yorkshire, when his father, George, was 23 and his mother, Maud, was 20. He married Doreen O'Connor in Liverpool in 1938 and they had two children.

During WW2 John served in the Royal Marines. The London Gazette has a record of Sergeant (Acting Temporary Quartermaster Sergeant) John Thomas Lund, R.M., Po.X. 1315 (Mexborough), 48 Royal Marine Commando, mentioned in despatches.

The 48 RM Commando was formed on Thursday 2nd March 1944 at Deal from the 7th Royal Marine Battalion and were disbanded at Beeding, near Horsham, on 31st January 1946.

48 RM Commando trained at Achnacarry between 13th March and 3 April 1944. On 6th June they took part in the D-Day landings, assisting the Canadian forces on Juno Beach. They captured the strongpoint at Langrune sur Mer where they remained on security duties after suffering 50 per cent casualties.

On 20th August the unit attacked German field batteries at Clermont-en-Auge and secured high ground overlooking Dozule.

On 25th August they outflanked enemy positions near Beuzeville, which were mortaring 46 RM Cdo, and on the next night infiltrated behind this town to St Maclou with 41 RM Cdo; and went on to advance across the Seine to Valmont against no opposition.

John is mentioned in despatches for his part in supporting 21 Army Group. The action he was commended for would probably have been Operation Infatuate, an operation to capture Welcheren island, on 1 Nov 1944. 48 Commando trained for this operation in October, and it was of the greatest importance to the operations of the Allied Armies in Flanders as it cleared the entrance to the river Scheldt allowing access to the port of Antwerp.

The troops taking part in the successful seaborne attack were the 4th Special Service Brigade consisting of Numbers 41, 47, and 48 RM Commandos, and Number 4 Army Commando. 48 Commando successfully assaulted W13 battery about 1600 hours on 1st November; on D+1 (2nd November) they captured strongpoint W287 at first light (0630 hours), with A Troop entering Zouteland at 1100 hours and clearing dunes while other units gave support fire. 48 Commando then moved north to support 41 RM Cdo on D+4 (5th November) before being withdrawn on 12th November.

After rest at Haan, they moved to Goes (South Beveland) training reinforcements; three Troops, X, Y, and Z under command of 47 RM Cdo were the only infantry in the Oosterhout area at the end of December.

During March 1945 they mounted five raids against Schowen and Overflakkee, suffering casualties on mines.

On 25th March the unit were in defensive positions on the River Maas at s'Hertogenbosch, a road and rail centre 6,000 yds from German positions with active enemy artillery and patrols.

In April the unit was on a quieter front as reserve to Belgians and Dutch near Kapelsches Veer; they raided in dories into the Biesbosch, among marshes and waterlogged islands; 23rd April saw the last operation by this Commando to rescue a patrol in the Biesbosch without casualties before ceasing fire, except for defence.

From 1st May to 31st August 1945 they were based at Minden (Germany) as defence force for the HQ of Allied Naval Commander Expeditionary Force (ANCXF); From September to 21st October they were at Waltrop and nearby controlling displaced persons (DPs).

From October to November 1945 the Commando were on occupational duties at Kreis Buren looking after two camps of DPs, with patrols based on five burgomasters offices; these patrols stopped black market rackets, rapes and armed robberies and Marine officers organised camp improvements before returning to UK on 29th November.

John married Violet Louisa Rayner in 1950 in Chatham, Kent. He died in February 1992 in Chatham, Kent, at the age of 76.

Was John a career soldier?

Several things support this hypothesis.

Geography:
John married in Liverpool and his wife, who was from Manchester, gave birth to their first child in Portsmouth. Brought up in Mexborough, it was fairly unusual for a man to move so far from his home and from his wife's home.

The 1939 Register:
We can't find John in the 1939 register, and yet we have a record for Doreen (who was pregnant with my Dad!). The 39 register is pretty accurate, so if John was on the UK mainland in a civilian capacity we would have found him. He might already have been in the armed forces, or was out of the country.

Royal Marines Registered Numbers:
In 1925 the Letter X was added to prefixes to indicate men enlisted or re-entered under the revised rates of pay (entries on and after 5th October 1925). A new sequence of numbers beginning at 1 was started in each register for ranks who re-entered after a break in service of less than five years before 2nd November 1925.

In 1941 Registered Numbers were Six Digit Numbers during WW2. The prefixes CH/X, PLY/X, PO/X followed by numbers of six digits in the 100000 series, indicated ranks entered for Hostilities Only (HO) Service during World War ll, (CH/X119200; PO/X127790; PLY/X117156).

John Thomas Lund, with the prefix PO.X (not /X) and a four digit number - 1315 could have enlisted after 1925. As he did not have a six digit number it would a seem he was not a hostilities only recruit, adding more credence to our supposition that he was a career soldier.

Formation of 48 Commando:
We know that 48 Commando was the last one to be formed and was created from the 7th RM Battalion and the Mobile Naval Base Defence Organisation Battalions. So John would have served in one of those units before becoming part of 48 Commando.

Various sources, including http://www.royal-marines.net/1925-1949.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Infatuate

https://ancstry.me/2sAzTo0

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 07/02/2019 15:56:42

Hi Cat,

You're GOOD!

Never expected all that, but you're pretty much bang on...

So, if your grandpa was born in Mexborough and PO/X 1315 J. T. Lund was also from Mexborough (as per his MiD, gazetted on 13 Mar 1945) - I think it's fair to say they are 98.991574% one and the same person! :D

Yes he was a career marine - the prefix (PO) on his number tells us he joined up in the Portsmouth Division...
[Other RM Divisions - CH = Chatham, PLY = Plymouth]
The letter 'X' was added to the prefixes of men enlisted under the revised rates of pay on and after 5 October 1925...
By the time the use of Divisional prefixes and Divisional registers had been superseded in 1948, these sequences had reached four figures...
PO/X (4393)
CH/X (3285)
PLY/X (4897

Those with the prefixes CH/X, PLY/X, PO/X & RMB/X ( RM Band) followed by a SIX digit number in the 100000 series were ranks in the 'Hostilities Only' (HO) Service during the WWII - [PO/X 17790, CH/X 119200, PLY/X 117156]

48 RM Commando was the last of the RM Commando Units to be formed. As you know they were formed by the conversion of 7th RM Battalion to become 48 RM Cdo

RM Museum wrote:48 RM Commando

Formed at Deal 2/13 March 1944 from 7th Battalion and disbanded at Beeding, near Horsham, on 31 January 1946

Trained at Achnacarry 13 March to 3 April 1944;
6 June landed in Normandy and captured the strongpoint at Langrune-sur-Mer where the Commando remained on security duties after suffering 50 per cent casualties;
9 June reinforcements arrived, bringing strength to 250, before advance to Douvres for patrolling;
11 June in Orne line and next day advanced 1,000yds to Sallenelles where the Commando in a defence line for 60 days, although the number of patrols was limited so as not to interfere with other Commandos' patrols, since there were four Commandos on a 2,000yds front.
On 20 August moved from Troarn, bypassing Dozule to advance in daylight to reach Clermont-en-Auge, attacked German field batteries etc before midday, and later secured high ground overlooking Dozule;
25 August outflanked enemy positions near Beuzeville which were mortaring 46 RM Cdo, and next night infiltrated behind this town to St Maclou with 41 RM Cdo; advanced across Seine to Valmont against no opposition;
5?13 September in Valmont for rest; policed Le Havre for next two days;
18?27 September held front of 10,000yds investing Dunkirk and patrolling.
October trained for Walcheren operation;
on 1 November landed on Walcheren, clearing south of the 'gap' and successfully assaulted W13 battery about 1600 hours;
D+1 (2 November) captured strongpoint W287 at first light (0630 hours), 'A' Troop entering Zouteland at 1100 hours before 47 RM Cdo passed through;
clearing dunes while other units gave support fire from north of the 'gap'; the Commando moved north to support 41 RM Cdo on D+4 (5 November) before being withdrawn on 12 November.
After rest at Haan, moved to Goes (South Beveland) training reinforcements;
three Troops, 'X', 'Y', and 'Z' under command of 47 RM Cdo as only infantry in Oosterhout area at the end of December.
During March 1945 the Commando mounted five raids against Schowen and Overflakkee, the Commando suffering casualties on mines.
On 25 March in defensive positions on the River Maas at s'Hertogenbosch, a road and rail centre 6,000yds from German positions; enemy artillery and patrols were active;
in April on a quieter front of 35,000yds, as reserve to Belgians and Dutch near Kapelsches Veer;
raided in dories into the Biesbosch, among marshes and waterlogged islands;
23 April last operation by this Commando to rescue a patrol in the Biesbosch without casualties before ceasing fire, except for defence.
From 1 May to 31 August based at Minden (Germany) as defence force for the HQ of Allied Naval Commander Expeditionary Force (ANCXF);
September to 21 October at Waltrop and near by controlling displaced persons (DPs).
October to November 1945 the Commando on occupational duties at Kreis Buren looking after two camps of DPs, with patrols based on five burgomasters' offices; these patrols stopped 'black market' rackets, rapes and armed robberies;
Marine officers organised camp improvements before returning to UK on 29 November and disbanded January 1946...

48 RM Cdo were not only the youngest and the last RM Cdo formed but they had the shortest Commando Training Course as they needed to be trained for D-Day ( although they weren't aware of that at the time.
But obviously your gf was in 7th RM battalion before this - and probably would have been involved with the MNBDO...

:D (more research needed - by you!)

Au revoir for now,

Nick

HA! so while I was busy typing with one finger (it's an age thing) you were busy editing your post with the stuff I was typing! :D

Nick

Haha! I can't leave it alone - it's so interesting!!! and impatience may well be my besetting sin.

Thanks so much for your input - it's reassuring to hear from someone who's expert that we are getting it right. Also - the internet is a wonderful thing, there's so much info on there - but how much is true??!! To corroborate the facts is brilliant, especially our deduction that he was a career soldier - I knew it! Ha!!

I've ordered Ken Ford's book on 48 Commando on Amazon and will scour it for clues too, while we wait for the service records

It's just a shame that we never had the chance to know him. :(