Hugh Maines, No1 Cdo

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 13/02/2009 23:24:41

Hi

I recently applied for my father's Army records and today received a thick envelope containing many A3 sized copies of these documents. Although the majority are concerned with his post Commando career, as he reinlisted with his parent Regiment the RWF and stayed with them until 1963. One of them deals specifically with his time in the Commandos. It is a very interesting doc as it clearly states in chronological order all the various units he joined ie No9 Independent Company, No11 Independent Company, No9 again then No1 Special Service Bn and finally No1 Commando. One thing that puzzles me though, is that in the book by Peter Taylor on Allied Special Service Insignia it states that there were only 10 Independent Companies, however my father's record clearly states that he was posted to No11 in June of 1940. Also at the end of the entries covering his postings to the Independent Companies there is a word that looks like it begins Super.............? Does any body have any idea what this word might be?
Another interesting section in this particular document clearly states all the geographical areas that he operated in and the time in years and days that he spent there. I will now be able to use the information in this doc when I visit the National Archive at Kew, to not only examine the War Diaries of No1 but also see if there were any war diaries for the Independent Companies and SS Bn that he was posted to.
I must say that I am very pleased with the documents that I have received, although only one of them is related to the Commandos it has told me so much ie that he was with No1 from its very begining as No1 was created on the 05 March 1941 and my father was posted on the 04 Mar 41.
If any one out there could shed some light on what this word begining "Super..........? might be and help solve the problem of the number of Independent companies that there were, I would be most grateful.

Cheers Andy.

I'm pretty sure it's Supernumerary.

I don't think the Holding Commando existed at the time so I assume that your dad was sent to the the Independent Companies where he finished his commando training and waited for a 'vacancy' when he would be TOS (Taken on Strength).

Only a theory - I may be wrong.

Nick

Hi Nick

Thanks for the prompt reply, having re-examined the word with the digital magnifying glass, I am pretty sure that you are right about what the word actually is and what it probably means.

cheers Andy

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 30/11/2008 00:07:42

Hi Andy

Being posted to No.11 in June 1940 might link in with Operation Collar - the Commando one rather than the Navy one. Tried to post the Wikepedia link but it didnt work. Heres the text from it:

Operation Collar, the first raid by British Commandos on north western Europe, was made the night of June 23, 1940. It was made by 120 men of the 375-strong No.11 Commando/Independent Company commanded by Major Ronnie Tod on the night of June 23, 1940. The attack was not very effective militarily, but rather was operated for mere propaganda value. It was an offensive reconnaissance on the French coast south of Boulogne-sur-Mer and Le Touquet. The only British injury was a bullet graze to observer Dudley Clarke's ear, while at least two German soldiers were killed. In recognition of this action, No. 11 Independent Company were awarded the Boulogne battle honour.[1]

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 18/12/2008 01:23:03

Hi Pete
Thanks for the reply will investigate this potential link further, actually something has literally just occurred to me, as you may or may not know I have a photograph posted on this site of my father and a group of other Commandos in a landing craft having just carried out a raid on the coast of France. I remember my father telling me that they encountered a German patrol, I think that he told me some one's magazine dropped out of thier machine Gun and gave their position away, after a brief fire fight a number of this patrol were killed. My dad said that they brought one of the bodies back as proof of the encounter, and that this body was still in the bottom of the Landing craft when the photo was taken. However the part of the action that you have just described that has really struck a chord with me is the bit about the wounded ear, because in my photo one of the soldiers has clearly got a field dressing to his head that actually covers his ears. I had always assumed that this photo was of a raid carried out by No1 Commando in Sep 1941 on St Vaast Bay, due to the fact that No1 only carried out two small raids on the French coast, one of which resulted in three German dead, however I will now have to seriously re-examine this theory, as this could now very well be a photo of No 11 Independent Company coming off the raid that you have described. I have attached this photo for you to have a look to see what you think. There is quite a detailed discription of the St Vaast Bay raid on the Combined Operations Website, and in this it states that three Germans were killed with no casualties suffered by the raiding party, clearly not the case in my photo. This description also states that the St Vaast raiding party missed thier rondezvous with their support ship and so had to make their way back to Portsmouth, again in my photo the LC seems to be moored up against the side of a ship. Also up untill today I did not know that my father was in an independent company, so thanks ever so much for your reply, it could prove very significant in terms of tracing my father's Commando history. I will now have another date and unit title to examine when I visit the National Archive in the new year to viewe the War Diaries.

Many many thanks

Andy

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 30/11/2008 12:42:50

Hi Andy
Well having loked at the picture it seems to be his left ear or thereabouts where the injury is. The person injured on the raid was a Dudley Clarke who was there as an observer. I am assuming this was Lt Col. Dudley Clarke who played a role in the creation of the name "Commando" (open to correction from anyone if I get this wrong by the way!!). Was he the same Dudley Clarke who went on to plan all the great deceptions of the war ?( Montys double etc). In your picture he is standing next to an officer..I am not sure of the rank on his shoulder. Perhaps someone can zoom in and look. His face somehow seems familiar but where from? This might help further.

Seems like some great detective work going on here - great stuff.

I've been looking at the officer's rank and I'm sure I can only see two insignia...
That would make him either a Lieutenant (2 pips) or, a Lieutenant Colonel (1 pip, 1 crown).

I get the impression, from the far epaulette, that the insignia are raised to a peak - the crowns, in profile, are quite flat, whereas the pips could be described as pyramid shaped and were raised in their centre.
So my theory is that the officer is a lieutenant!

Nick

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 30/11/2008 22:25:03

here is an extract from the book " The Commandos 1940 - 46" by charles Messenger.
Chapter 1, In the Beginning,

The First Raids... In the meantime Churchill was impatient for action, but, as yet the resources to begin carrying out raiding operations were very slender. The Commandos were still being formed, and all that was available were the Independant Companies. While Nos 1-5 and 10 Independant Companies were based in Scotland, it was decided to send Nos 6 - 9 to Cornwall, to help safeguard against invasion both there and on the Scilly Isles. Before they left Scotland, however, volunteers were called for to form a fresh Independant Company. No 11, for special operations. It was to consist of 25 officers and 350 other ranks and was to be commanded by Major Ronnie Todd. It was to be this unit which was to carry out the first of the commando operations.
No 11 was officially formed 14 June 1940, and moved to Southampton...
Operation Collar took place on the night of 24/25 June. Two parties set out from Ramsgate, each with two boats to operate in the Hardelot area, a third, with one boat, from Dover would also land at a different spot in the same area, while two parties from Newhaven would land at Stella Plage and north of Berck...
Of the Ramsgate groups, the first boat landed just southof Hardelot and met an enemy patrol which fired at them and made off. Fire was not returned. The other boat was not afterwards able to pinpoint where it had landed, but saw nothing, apart from coming under machine-gun fire during re-embarkation. The Dover party arrived too late to land, although they did come under some machine-gun fire. The party landing at Berck found nothing, and only the stella Plage group, which actually landed at Merlimont Plage, had a proper brush with the enemy.
"An enemy patrol of 2 men was encountered and both killed by sub-machine gun fire at a range of 15 yards. Nothing was removed from the bodies. ..."
The only casualty of the raid came in this last action when Dudley Clarke, who had gone as an observer, was hit behind the ear, but not seriously

Nick

A very slightly different account of this raid is told in "The Green Beret" by Hilary st George Saunders where, in Chapter 2, The Force is Conceived, he recounts that the boat with the injured Dudley Clarke on board made it back to Dover where the injured officer went off to hospital to have his ear, which was partially severed, sewn on again. "The man who had conceived The Commandos was the first of them to be wounded in action".

In the meantime, the men on board the boat that landed at Plage de Merlimont approached a large building surrounded by barbed wire. It was filled with the enemy and may have been the headquarters of a local garrison, or possibly an officers' mess. Two sentries were on guard outside and they were set upon and killed. One died silently, but the other screamed and his death cry gave the alarm. The wire was too thick for the attackers to charge the building and they therefore contented themselves with lobbing grenades through the windows, and withdrew with one of the corpses. So crowded was the boat, however, that they were forced to tow it behind and it sank before England was reached.

A third account of the raid comes from " March Past" by Lord Lovat. Chapter 11, Time to move on.

... The Dover party went ashore nearer Boulogne where they engaged German cyclist patrol - an easy target which should have beenambushed as it passed by. In the event, an officer mis-handled his sub-machine gun at the critical moment: as he belatedly cocked the unfamiliar weapon, the magazine dropped off before he pressed the trigger. Clarke, however, bled for his country. He got a bullet (only a glancing blow) along his neck and earlobe which must have stung a bit. So they returned to England without a prisoner...

The third party claimed a dead German in a similar skirmish, but he was not picked up. Such claims on such a dark night must be sustantiated. Tendancies to exaggerate go with inexperience, nerves and a lively imagination. The claim, on this occasion was 'blown' by the assertion that there had been no room in the crash boat and the corpse had been towed astern. The rope conveniently before reaching England.
Clarke had his severed ear sewn back on again after reaching Dover...

I'm afraid that these three slightly differing accounts do muddy the waters a little as far as ascertaining which raid Hugh Maines was on, but it does show how subtle differences in reports can bring about completely different stories.

Hopefully, however, we do have an explanation about No 11 Independent Company for Andy.

Nick

Hi

Some excellent info being generated, I tend to a agree that the officer in the photo is a Lt, which is why I initially thought that the photo is of No1 Commando having carried out a raid on the Pointe de Saire near St Vaast Bay. On the Combined Operations site it has the following account:

"On the night of 27/28 September 1941 No5 Troop of No1 Commando undertook a raid on a couple of beaches with the aim of taking German Prisoners. The Target beaches were on the Pointe de Saire near St Vaast on the French coast east of Cherbourg and Courseulles north west of Caen. They sailed from Spithead on board raiding craft Carrier HMS Prince Leopold. In mid channel the men transferred to their ALCs to be towed by motor gunboats to their destination beaches. Lt Scaramanga's party landed as planned at St Vaast Bay and were faster on the draw with their Tommy guns when they were confronted by a German bicycle patrol. Three of the German patrol were killed and the remainder scattered.
The Commandos made their way back to their ALC with one corpse. They were fortunate to suffer no casualties when fired on by a machine gun. However thet were too late for thier rendezvous with thier MGB and the Prince Leopld so they made thier own way back to Portsmouth arriving there about 1600 hrs.
The other party under Captain Davies had a very different experience. As they approached thier designated landing area they realised they were heading for the wrong beach. Time was short so they carried on in the hope of snatching a prisoner. On landing they were immediately challenged followed by rapid machine gun fire. Davies ordered an attack on the machine gun position which involved climbing a 10 ft sea wall and breaking through two coils of dannert wire. In the process of negotiating these obstacles two more macine guns opened fire and the Commandos had no choice but to withdraw. By the time they boarded thier ALC one of thier number was wounded and two were missing. Under the circumstances nothing further could be done so they returned at full speed to thier waiting MGB."

As you can see the rank of the officer on the St Vaast raid was a Lt, as I believe the officer to be in my photo also I am pretty sure that my father said that there was the body of a German in the LC when the photo was taken. The only problem with the above St Vaast account is that it clearly states that no Commandos were wounded, obviously not so in the case of my photo. If I could get a positive ID on the officer who's face can clearly be seen in the photo, that would go a long way to narrowing down exactly which of the raids it is possibly of. As the above Com Ops discription states, No1 only carried out two small raids where the enemy were encountered and one was led by a Lt. Combining this with what my father told me about the photo ie that there was a German Body in LC, what the above article states about the officers rank ie in my photo it is most likely a Lt. I am pretty sure that if my photo is of one of these two small No1 raids then it is most likely the St Vaast Bay action.
Of course having now recieved my father's Army Records which clearly state that he was posted to No 11 Ind on the 14 June 1940 which is the exact date that the Nick quotes as being when this unit was formed, this photo could quite easily be of one of the Operation Collar raids. At least now thanks to my father's recently received Army records and the input provided by both Pete and Nick, I have some more information to take with me when I visit the National Archive at Kew to viewe the War Diaries.
Just in case you are interested my father is the person at the end of the middle row in the LC who is looking up and is bare headed (approx mid way in the photo).

Many thanks to both Pete and Nick for all their input, it is very much appreciated.

Andy

Andy,
Just thinking aloud here:

As I said previously, it looks as if the officer in the photo is either a Lt or a Lt Col.
Operation Collar was lead by Major Ronnie Tod, Lt Col Dudley Clarke went along as an observer, and, if he is the injured party, then (as he was the only Lt Col on the raid), the unknown officer must be a lieutenant.

Nick

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 02/12/2008 23:25:57

Hi Nick

I have just read your latest messages after sending a rather lengthy reply, one of the points in the Dover / Boulogne discription concerning the magazine dropping from an officer's machine gun clearly strikes a chord. As you can see in the message that I posted previously with the attached photo my father told me that exact same story.
Again thanks ever so much for all this info it is really terrific.

Andy

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 26/01/2009 09:53:10

Andy,

I've seen your photos in the Gallery and noted that you've pinned the photo down to Op Collar.
Well done!

Great to have a piece of documented Commando history in your possession.

Nick

Hi Andy,

Could the Super be Supernumerary?

Kevin