Info about my great grandfather Patrick Egan

Hi every one ,

I am looking into my great grandfather who i believe served with the 29th Commando Regiment Royal Artillery , Royal Marines.
A few weeks ago i was in touch with my Aunt , looking for information about relatives of mothers family who fought in the first world war. A few years before my uncle (my mothers brother) passed away, he was researching family history and mostly of his grandfather Patrick Egan.
I was informed by my Aunt, that my uncle believed that he served in the British Army and that it was one of the Artillery Units.

When i met up with my Aunt, she had a photograph of my great grandfather with her and passed it on to me. I immediately recognized the collar badges of his uniform, the Royal Marines. So i put two and two together and just to be double sure, i sent a screenshot to a good friend of mine who served with the
Royal Green Jackets and informed me that my great grandfather seemed to have been with the 29th Commando Regiment Royal Artillery.

The photograph that i have was dated 17th June 1946 and the 29th were formed in 1947.

As a former member of The 2nd Field Artillery Regiment - Irish Defence Forces , let me tell you . I was both happy and shocked to find out that my great grandfather was part of the Royal Marines

What i have found in my research is seen below , attached with the photograph.

Patrick Egan - Wife Christina Egan

Born 1896

1901 census aged 5

House no:3 Common

Sheepstown, Knocktopher Co.Kilkenny

Mother Anne Egan

Father Name not known

Moved to Stonyford Co.Kilkenny

Artillery Ranks Gunner, Sergeant then back to Corporal

Hi Anthony,

Welcome to the CVA Website and Forums. Hope we can help!

I'm afraid your friend in the RGJ is mis-informed...

First of all, your grandfather certainly seemed to have been a Royal Marine - but not necessarily a commando!

Secondly, 29 Commando Regiment, RA, are not Royal Marines - they are Royal Artillery.
However, everyone in 29 Cdo Regt have trained and qualified as commandos and wear the coveted Green Beret. The Unit is part of 3 Commando Brigasde where it gives artillery support to the Royal Marines.

So back to my first statement: Although they can trace their origins back to 1664, the Royal Marines were formed in 1755, they did not have a commando role - there were RM Infantry (RMI), RM Light Infantry (RMLI) and RM Artillery (RMA)...

Move forward to the WWII and the early Commando units, formed in 1940, were all from the British Army but, by February 1942, the Royal Marines were told to organise Commando units of their own.
The first Royal Marines Commando unit was formed at Deal in Kent on 14 February 1942 and designated 'The Royal Marine Commando.'
Before long it was re-designated RM 'A' Commando. Shortly after it became 40 RM Commando.

Other RM Commandos were formed - by converting RMLI battalions to Commandos. In total, nine RMLI Battalions were converted to RM Commandos - the last, 48 RM Commando finished a shortened Commando Course days before D-Day...
All of the RM Commandos wore the Green Beret - the rest of the RM Corps wore a Navy Blue Beret.

At the end of WWII the (Army) Commando were disbanded and the Commando Role was passed to the RMs - however at this time not all of the RM Corps were commandos. Work began training new recruits to become commandos. It wasn't until 1964 that the whole RM Corps were commandos and entitled to the Green Beret.

However, it wasn't long after the end of WWII that the powers that be realised that the RMs need extra support. Which explains the existence of Army Commando Royal Artillery Units, Army Commando Royal Engineer Units and Army Commando Logistic Units all wearing Green Berets and all in support of the RMS.

So we have established that Patrick Egan was a Royal Marine.
Now I would suggest that you apply to the MoD for a scan of his original service record - that will tell you a lot more about him than we can.

It will cost £30 but the MoD are the only custodians of Service Records and I would thoroughly recommend it.
I can send you details of how to apply if you wish...

Nick

Hi Nick,

First of all thank you.

Secondly that?s a lot interesting information.

As I said I couldn?t believe that he served with the Royal Marines.

Yes, can you please send on the details to contact the MOD , so I can look into getting a copy of his service records . Greatly appreciated.

Thank you again for replying at a later hour.

Fingers crossed and I will be in touch when I get more information.

Regards Anthony

Anthony,

Just to reiterate, your Great Grandfather was NOT in 29 Cdo Regt.
He WAS in the Royal Marines.

I will send the forms tomorrow...

Nick

Copy that ...

No problem ....

Thank you

Hi Anthony

In addition to what Nick has said, there was a 29th RM Battalion which disbanded in 1946. Not Commandos as such, but worthy of note as a possible reason for what has been passed down through the family. The following is the Unit History produced in the book The Royal Marines 1919 - 2000 by J.D. Ladd

When the Armoured Support Group was disbanded after returning from France in 1944, many of its personnel were transferred to this Battalion which was formed on 3 October 1944 at Burma Camp in Llwyngwril (North Wales). On 1 March 1945 practically all its personnel were drafted to form the 34th Amphibian Assault Rgt RM. However, the Battalion HQ was not disbanded until February 1946.

You will note there that it mentions the Royal Marine Armoured Support Group. Whilst not themselves Commando trained, they did provide artillery support for the Commandos at Normandy. Here?s an account by someone who served with them:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/58/a2174258.shtml

Hopefully the service record will provide all the detail you are looking for.

Gents.

On this subject of commando trained personnel in the Royal Marines or not commando trained, you must remember that there have been many conversations on here about R.M records and recording of service. My grandfather was in 45 I have 2 photos of him in a green beret (one photo is in the CVA album for 45 from Sgt W.J Noakes MM personal collection and a very mottled but recognisable black and white photo of B troop 45 Commando at Hilsea barracks Portsmouth which is where 45 trained upon formation and subsequent commando course at CBTC Achnacarry. However is papers mainly come under combined operations and Oddyssey which was the pay and drafting office for RM and Naval parties. I have many stories from my late grandmother of his time in Lord Lovatts Brigade, D Day, Holland, and Germany especially around Belsen where 1st special service Brigade were employed for a little while on there way through Germany.

Just a point whilst you say that the Armoured support group were not commando trained, I would like to point out that the recently deceased Marine signaller Patrick Churchill R.M passed the coma do course and was awarded the green beret, he was subsequently posted to RM ASG as a shortage of signallers was happening. He later went on to No 4 Army commando to see the rest of the war out.

What we must remember is that the R.M Commandos were all on loan to the commando service during the dark days of WW2, I have had along journey on finding out what grandad got up to, including interviewing family members and finding the photos then verifying the authenticity of them.

Not an easy task, but I think we must remember that not all records were accurate and were recorded in the UK due to the speed and momentum of the brigades move through the operational theatre. After the commandos started letting personnel demob, those left had to revert to the big marine divisions where they would demob from, there dress then was usually No 1 Blues with peaked cap. So as much as we assume that people were not commando trained they might well have been, also a point to note is that personal diaries and cameras were not allowed in wartime on operations.

Best regards. Craig.

I would surmise that service records were pretty accurate, even more so "if on loan" to the Commando,(as all Commandos were on loan and were on their regimental pay roll). An individuals movements within units, leave, transfer etc, are well documented in his service record.
But records of service within the Commando, other than photographic and perhaps family accounts are a bit harder to verify.
If available a soldiers pay book would hold far more info of a soldiers movement, as his pay book went where he went.
Kevin

Craig,

I'm not quite sure what points you're trying to make.

We are quite aware your father was in 45 RM COMMANDO - therefore, he was a commando and wore the Green Beret. There is no discussion about that.

Originally 5th RM Battalion, the whole battalion reformed as 45 RM Commando on 1 August 1943 - the whole unit converted to the Commando role as a formed unit, by-passing the individual volunteer and selection process undertaken by (Army) Commando volunteers.

Our dearly missed friend, Pat Churchill RM was with 2 RM ASG on D-Day. Pat spent "no more than an hour" on the beach itself before moving off and, ultimately penetrating 3-5 miles inland on D-Day itself. Later his tank was involved in the battle of Rots / Le Hamel in support of 46 RM Cdo...
But, at this time, I don't believe he had undergone Commando Training (I will confirm this with his son Frank).

Returning to the UK he was then assigned to No.4 Cdo as a signaller to 6 (French) Troop - in advance of the Walcheren landings (Operation Infatuate) on 1 November '44. He stayed with No.4 Cdo until the end of the war.

I think you are a little confused when you say that "RM Commandos were on loan to the commando service..."

The Army volunteers were on loan from their parent regiments and they made up unformed or irregular units - the Army Commandos - in 1940...
In 1942 the Royal Marines were told to form RM Commando units - which they did by converting formed RM Battalions to become formed/regular RM Commando units.
This is why the unformed Army Units were disbanded at end of hostilities, whereas the formed RM Commando Units carried on with the Commando Role...

Thank you for pointing out that cameras and personal diaries were forbidden on operations in wartime - although we are aware of such rules ( that even stood when I served from 1970 - 1998) there is indisputable evidence that some commandos/soldiers/sailors and airmen defied such rules...

Nick

Anthony,

Here are the two forms you will need to apply to the MoD for your great grandfather's RM Service Records

You will need the consent of his next of kin ( the form shows how to determine who is his closest NoK), £30 admin fee and a copy of his death certificate.
The forms are straight forward but if you have any queries please either post on this thread or email or PM me...

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/711147/20180524-request_service_details_NOK_part1_v6.2.pdf

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/711157/request_for_service_details_rnrm_application_part2__1_.pdf

Nick

I?m not confused at all Nic. Just stating a fact that green bereted Marines served with other units than commandos, I was merely pointing out that my grandads records do not state Commando service, the RM records office at Whale Island sent me a letter stating that records weren?t kept for historical reasons but legal.
It seems that an assumption is made sometimes on this site that a marine isn?t commando trained because he?s wearing a set of blues. Let?s remember that in wartime cameras weren?t readily available for all to use.

I read somewhere that Pat did have his green beret, I have book on tanks in WW2 and the picture on the front cover shows a RM centaur with a green beret in the turret. Tankmen by Robert Kershaw. I have had an online conversation with a gent who claims his father was in 45 he is in the photo with grandfather in William Noakes collection and his service papers do not state commando trained.

On the question of loan to the commandos a lot of marines commandos when due for demob, were demobbed from the parent division Ports, Plymouth or Chatham etc.

An interesting story is the story of 41 Commando by Raymond Mitchell who served from formation until demob, he kept an illegal diary and was how he managed to document the history, this was recognised in the forward by Major General Julian Thompson R.M.

In more modern times as you know most servicemen had cameras, I kept a task diary of my own when on Op Telic 2 & 3 Iraq 2003 - 2004 and have used these notes to update regimental history. And have over 2800 photos.

You guys do a great job helping others to find the right info, keep up the good work. I will be at the Commando training centre next week to meet my troop from training, I will try and get some photos for the site.

Regards.

Thanks Nick , I look into this.
Much Appreciated...

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 17/07/2018 00:43:51

Craig,
Please excuse me if I use your statements then try to answer them

"It seems that an assumption is made sometimes on this site that a marine isn?t commando trained because he?s wearing a set of blues".

1. Craig, nobody has ever made that statement on this Website - we do assume that he wasn't commando trained if there is no record of him being in a RM Commando during WWII...

"Let?s remember that in wartime cameras weren?t readily available for all to use".

2. It was you that said, "also a point to note is that personal diaries and cameras were not allowed in wartime on operations." I pointed out that we have a Gallery of thousands of photos taken on operations and many personal diaries...

"I read somewhere that Pat did have his green beret, I have book on tanks in WW2 and the picture on the front cover shows a RM centaur with a green beret in the turret. Tankmen by Robert Kershaw."

3. The cover of Tankmen has been colourised (even if it is a genuine photograph taken during WWII) and you must realise that it was/is a common misconception that all Royal Marines wore green berets...

"I have had an online conversation with a gent who claims his father was in 45 he is in the photo with grandfather in William Noakes collection and his service papers do not state commando trained.

On the question of loan to the commandos a lot of marines commandos when due for demob, were demobbed from the parent division Ports, Plymouth or Chatham etc."

4. The RM Commandos were not on loan - they were still part of the RM Corps - so they would be demobbed from RM Depots...

"An interesting story is the story of 41 Commando by Raymond Mitchell who served from formation until demob, he kept an illegal diary and was how he managed to document the history, this was recognised in the forward by Major General Julian Thompson R.M."

5. As did many servicemen - otherwise we wouldn't have them on the website...

"In more modern times as you know most servicemen had cameras, I kept a task diary of my own when on Op Telic 2 & 3 Iraq 2003 - 2004 and have used these notes to update regimental history. And have over 2800 photos.

You guys do a great job helping others to find the right info, keep up the good work. I will be at the Commando training centre next week to meet my troop from training, I will try and get some photos for the site."

6. Thanks. We look forward to seeing them...

Nick

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 17/07/2018 15:10:53

Hi Craig,

Anecdotal evidence is absolutely fine for families, however we have made absolutely clear from the outset that we rely on hard facts, or evidence, that is clearly documented in order to maintain the historical accuracy of our own record on this website. Where we have no record and the Service Record is lacking in specific detail, this might make it frustrating for relatives wanting details of their loved ones added to our own Archive, but whoever said research was easy. We will and always do help where we can, but the onus as we clearly state on this site is, in the absence of any record of our own, for relatives to provide that to us.

By keeping to this strict critera, and with the help of a handful of our followers here, we have successfuly provided official bodies such as at the CWGC and the Armed Forces Memorial, with the hard evidence of fact that they require before they will amend or update their records. Only last week the CWGC agreed another amendment to record service in a RM Commando against the name of an individual on their records where previously it was not recorded. We have done this on many occasions now for both Army and RM Commandos. Even Westminster Abbey have this statement on on their website page for the Combined Services Memorial and its Roll of Honour there:

The Commando Veterans Archive maintains a fuller Roll of Honour (with amendments and additions) which can be searched online at www.commandoveterans.org