4 Commando Red on Khaki wool opinions

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 20/05/2016 19:11:08

Gidday all

I am new to collecting Commando formation signs and cloth shoulder titles.

In Peter Taylor's book Allied Special Forces he shows a 4 Commando Red on khaki wool title worn c 1942.

My question is did they wear this style and is the one I show an original?

I believe its not as it doesn't look like the typical WWII era titles.

cheers

Phill

G'day Phill,

To be honest I wouldn't rely too much on Peter Taylor's information. I am not a collector and am no expert when it come to badges & patches or their authenticity etc. but I do know there are a few mistakes in Peter Taylor's book regarding The Commandos.
We do have a few collectors on the site and I'm sure they drop in shortly to give you the benefit of their knowledge.
I also believe that one of our group is working with Peter Taylor on a new book (or possibly a newer edition of the old book)...

A very good site that I sometimes use when I need expert advice is The British Military Badge Forum - but, again whilst there is a wealth of knowledge on the site there can also be confusion regarding Commando Badges...
http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/

With regard to the khaki shoulder titles; all I can say is that, having read the War Office directives, held in the National Archives, regarding dress & badges etc, these khaki titles do not conform to the regulation shoulder titles.
But, then neither did No.2 Cdo's cap badge - and they wore theirs throughout the War!

Sorry that hasn't answered any of your questions :(

Nick

Thank you Nic.

I had posted on BBF but 75 views and no replies!!

Yes I have come across people who have mentioned the same on Peter Taylor's book and Im leaning towards a reproduction.

I might need advise , were there theatre made commando titles made on the continent during WWII also unauthorized titles and formation signs made by tailors in the UK?

Thanks in advance Nic , Im learning as I go.

Phill

Hi Phill,

Were there theatre made cdo shoulder titles?
I couldn't honestly say but obviously the commandos were a very resourceful bunch of lads, so it's a definite possibility.

I've seen photos of some titles, for sale, that were so crude that they obviously handmade and being touted as genuine but then it comes down to the materials they're made from - as you're aware, modern cottons have more man-made materials in them than during the war but there are some destructive tests that can give better ideas of whether and item is genuine or a modern fake. [I believe there is a distinct line between a modern reproduction and a fake!]

Again to use No.2 Cdo as an example, they carved their unique cap badge from canteen cutlery - I don't know if this was done by a couple of skilled individuals or each commando carved his own.

I've seen photos of No.5 Commando circa '45, and some of the commandos are definitely wearing non-regulation "No.5" cap badges - these I'm sure are either handmade by commandos or by enterprising local 'craftsmen'...

Another example is the brass shoulder titles worn by No.5 Commando circa '45 - these were definitely non - regulation and were made locally in the Far East - I have seen a couple of these and photo of a few and they all seem to have the same flaws and marks as each other - so all cast in the same mould.

Sorry I've still not been able to give you definite answers but we too are still learning - and I always think it better to get some reply to a post than not get any... )

Nick

Nick

Thanks Nic

No need to apologize, I like discussions on Insignia and of course the units. I'm here to learn.

Just to clarify WWII commando's generally wore standard government regulated cloth titles ie embroidered red on black or dark blue felt with letter number stitching //////.

I do take your point reproduction is just that whether 15 years or 70 years after the fact, where as a fake is made to deceive.

I have been alerted to paki made attempts but they are easy to detect.

If I find out either good or bad I will update this thread.

Much appreciated.

Phill

Another interesting topic!

I'm interested in this one as I had my eye on this. I had my doubts so left it alone.

Therefore, it's probably 'right enough' and I've missed out. )

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 21/05/2016 16:00:31

Phillip Lockett wrote:

Just to clarify WWII commando's generally wore standard government regulated cloth titles ie embroidered red on black or dark blue felt with letter number stitching //////.

Yes that's right.
Initially each Commando Unit were designated colours - except No.5 Cdo who had already adopted the gold on green background (see my avatar).

Unfortunately my external HDD with all my Commando Files is broken, otherwise I could share the files and colours allocated to each unit - Light Blue, Red, Purple, Tartan (Depot) etc.
However the General Staff were not happy (they still resented the formation of the Commandos and seemed to be as obstructive as they possibly could) they wanted uniformity and stated that the shoulder titles should be the same across the Units.
'The powers that be' in the War Office had long discussions and eventually settled on the red on black/blue. There were still those in power who opposed this combination stating that it was too similar to the Royal Marine but Mountbatten pointed out that a precedent had already been set in that some of the Household Units already had that combinations and, anyway, HM The King, had shown a lot of interest in the Commandos and particularly this topic and had expressed his opinion that red on black/blue was a good one!

Fascinating stuff!

Nick

Eileen wrote:Another interesting topic!

I'm interested in this one as I had my eye on this. I had my doubts so left it alone.

Therefore, it's probably 'right enough' and I've missed out. )

Gidday Eileen

My thoughts are it isn't a legit title for all the reasons above , but worthy of discussion.

Would like to know how Peter Taylor came across this style of title if no one else has? Surely there would of been members of 4 CDO that would vouched for this style back then?

Lets see how it pans out

Phill

NIC wrote:

Phillip Lockett wrote:

Just to clarify WWII commando's generally wore standard government regulated cloth titles ie embroidered red on black or dark blue felt with letter number stitching //////.

Yes that's right.
Initially each Commando Unit were designated colours - except No.5 Cdo who had already adopted the gold on green background (see my avatar).

Unfortunately my external HDD with all my Commando Files is broken, otherwise I could share the files and colours allocated to each unit - Light Blue, Red, Purple, Tartan (Depot) etc.
However the General Staff were not happy (they still resented the formation of the Commandos and seemed to be as obstructive as they possibly could) they wanted uniformity and stated that the shoulder titles should be the same across the Units.
'The powers that be' in the War Office had long discussions and eventually settled on the red on black/blue. There were still those in power who opposed this combination stating that it was too similar to the Royal Marine but Mountbatten pointed out that a precedent had already been set in that some of the Household Units already had that combinations and, anyway, HM The King, had shown a lot of interest in the Commandos and particularly this topic and had expressed his opinion that red on black/blue was a good one!

Fascinating stuff!

Nick

Again many thanks Nic

Indeed fascinating discussion on how the colours were selected and the various colour combo in the early days .

There were French troops in 4 commando would a unique colour been tolerated for the French troops in 4 Cdo the early days?

Below is a pic of Sgt Louis Lanternier with a White on Khaki France title above his standard issued 4 Cdo title Ouistreham 1944 , possibly they could of had a different title in the early period 1942 pre uniformity days?

Sorry for the speculation and I don't like doing it , its just that I know very little about commando organization , history and insignia, of which I will rectify!

cheers

Phill

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 21/05/2016 22:21:29

I believe Peter Taylor is probably well versed and reasonably knowledgeable in military insignia - where regiments have long histories and everything is documented and badges /insignia have evolved over the years.

However, the Commandos were irregular - they had no history, they had no regimental HQ, they had no insignia, they had no traditions. Almost overnight individual volunteers from all the British regiments were thrown together in battalion sized groups. Commanding Officers were young officers in their twenties suddenly promoted to Lt Col. Some CO's brought some of their regimental history & traditions with them, most didn't.

So when Peter came to pen his book, when it came to The Commandos there wasn't a huge amount of information available. Some things just don't seem to be recorded and so maybe Peter made an educated assumption.

Take for example the No.5 Commando Hackle. In the early years No.5 Cdo wore a hackle in their Tam O'Shanters (before the days of the green beret). There are a few accounts of it being gold - which stands well with the fact that, unofficially, No.5 adopted gold & green as their colours.
In Peter Taylor's book it appears to be a bright primrose yellow - not unlike that of the Lancashire Fusiliers (I believe the only regiment to have had a yellow hackle at that time). There is no account of No.5's being that colour!
Peter Taylor has an artist's impression showing the hackle to be like a pom pom made with rounded or trimmed feathers. Contemporary photos show the hackle to be a splay of pointed feathers.
Photographic emulsions were a little different at the time - black and white film records shades of gray 'logically'. If you take a b&w picture of a blue and yellow object, you expect that the blue will record dark and the yellow light. Except, it wasn't always so. In the early days of photography the film (emulsion) was more sensitive to blue light than yellow light which meant, on the negative, the blue areas would be dark and the yellow would appear light, so on the print the blue would appear light and the yellow dark!

The hackles on the contemporary photos of No.5 Commando appear mid-grey - which would suggest they weren't a bright yellow colour but a darker orange - gold!
There is recorded interview, made by the Imperial War Museum, with Des Crowden who joined No.5 Cdo as a Private in the early days and who appears on a photo taken in 1942 - when the commando were still wearing the Hackle.
In the interview, Des describes how he met his future wife and suggests that she was first attracted to "the bright orange hackle I wore on my hat..."
Des finished his service with No.5 when they were disbanded in 1946, by then he was the RSM.

Why would Des describe the hackle as bright orange if it were primrose yellow? Surely he would have described them as bright yellow?

As it happens, No.5 Cdo soon dispensed with their hackle as, unlike the black hackle of Nos 9 & 11 Cdos, they proved to be fragile and easily broken...

My theory, having seen colour photos of what was described as a genuine No.5 Cdo Hackle, is that the hackle was made from the neck feathers of a cockerel - bright golden/orange but quite easily broken.

The photos below show what I believe to be closer to the real colour and design of No.5 Cdo's hackle and the bird that it may have come from...

Nick

Again thanks Nic

I do appreciate you filing m in on the early issues and set up of the commando's.

Also letting me know about how colours could be misconstrued due to photographic emulsions and interpretation 70 years later , that has been prevalent in other areas of collecting I had not taken into account.

Again I do like finding out about how insignia and traditions came to be and passed in this case 5 Commando Hackle's colour and how its been interpreted.

This is a thoroughly interesting conversation.

cheers

Phill

Phill,

With regard to Sgt Louis Lanternier with a White on Khaki France title above his standard issued 4 Cdo title Ouistreham 1944 - he was actually one of the 177 French Commandos from 1 & 8 Troops, No.10(IA) Commando who were attached to No.4 Commando for D-Day.
No.10 (Inter Allied) Commando was made up from volunteers from France, Belgium, Holland, Norway, Denmark, Poland and Yugoslavia and a number of mostly Jewish exiles from Germany or German occupied countries.
Each nation was designated its own troop and each troop wore its nation as part of their shoulder title.

No. 1 Troop - French
No. 2 Troop - Dutch
No. 3 Troop - Refugees from Axis countries (also known as "X Troop" or "British Troop")
No. 4 Troop - Belgian
No. 5 Troop - Norwegian
No. 6 Troop - Polish
No. 7 Troop - Yugoslavian
and, by D-Day -
No. 8 Troop - French

see here an example of a Polish commando from 6 Troop...
http://gallery.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/10IA/Polish/Fairborne_+Oct+1942-Polish+member+of+10+IA+Commando_.jpg.html

Nick

Many thanks Nic

Thanks for breaking down 10 Cdo.

So how come Sgt Louis Lanternier wasn't wearing 10 Commando title ? Would that be due to regulations if you were attached to another unit you have to wear theirs?

Another question , in references, the round CO patch was used for Army Commando's and tombstone patch for RN Commando's? But I see the Polish commando wears a Tombstone.

Sorry for the q's Nic , im finding out more "behind the scene" here than in any other forum!

Phill

Phillip Lockett wrote:

So how come Sgt Louis Lanternier wasn't wearing 10 Commando title ? Would that be due to regulations if you were attached to another unit you have to wear theirs?

Another question , in references, the round CO patch was used for Army Commando's and tombstone patch for RN Commando's? But I see the Polish commando wears a Tombstone.

I would imagine that it was a question of command - if the French were attached to No.4 Commando they came under the command of the CO No.4 Cdo, wearing the No.4 Cdo shoulder titles would mean that there was no discussion about it. But I know that the French commandos considered it an honour & a privilege to wear the No.4 titles.

The round Combined Ops became the regulation shape for all Combined Ops (again it's on my files!) and, knowing that I leave myself open for even more questions ) , here is a link to our RN Commando Album in the Gallery, which shows Lt Turton, RN Cdo, Nan Commando, Beachmaster N3.

http://gallery.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/rn+cdos/1943_06_Cdo_TJT.JPG.html

Nick

Thanks again Nic

You have been a big help and I appreciate you taking time to answer my questions.

Phill