Pte William Roberts - 3651864

Hi

I am in the process of finding out more about my Grandad, William Roberts. He enlisted with the South Lancashire Regiment in 1931 and spent several years in India/Afghanistan/Nepal. He was quite a keen photographer and I have a photo album from this period which is remarkable but nothing from WW2.

I have also got his 'certificate of service' which lists that he was:
Home 14.1.32 to 14.9.33
India 15.9.33 to 29.4.40
Home 30.4.40 to 2.6.44
NWE 3.6.44 to 13.6.44
Home 14.6.44 to 7.1.45
NWE 8.1.45 to 9.3.45
Home 10.3.45 to 26.12.45

Discharged 25.4.51

He was awarded a number of medals which I have: Palestine Medal 1936, North West Frontier Medal India 1936, France & Germany Star 1939-45, defence Medal, War Medal 1939-45, Africa Star and Military Medal 1945.

My Grandad was a very quiet and unassuming person and never really talked about his war experiences and he died 30 years ago - meaning I never really got to ask him for more information. The things that have been passed down though family are that he joined the commandos from his regiment and trained 'near Inveraray'. My mum (his daughter) says that he also mentioned being part of a raid in Norway as well as being part of the Normandy landing force. My Dad says that he told him that he was in 4 commando and that he also took part in some action in the Netherlands. We think he was wounded on various occasions - the certificate of service mentions shrapnel wounds to his legs, neck and forehead. Family information regarding the Military Medal is that this was awarded because he killed a number of Germans at close quarters whilst injured - but I haven't found his name listed anywhere! The medal is definitely in the box though!

In his medal box is a commando dagger badge which first led me to question whether he was in 2 commando, but from reading this forum, I suspect that this badge is one my Grandad got in the 1950s as it has the word 'commando' over the top of the dagger.

I've looked through all the nominal rolls and lots of the photos and I can't see anything as yet. I am in the process of getting my mum to request his service records to try and clarify the commando connection amongst other things. His certificate of service is really quite patchy - why was he awarded the Africa Star when there doesn't seem to be any mention of him in Africa?

In the meantime, if anyone does have any information, I'd love to hear from you and as soon as we receive his service records, I will clarify the commando connection.

Many thanks!

Carolyn

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 29/12/2014 19:40:54

Hi Carolyn,

thanks for all that information. What a mystery.

The London Gazette has announcements of awards such as the MM

Try searching for William here, https://www.thegazette.co.uk/ or

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/recommendations-honours-awards.htm

I was unable to find him.

However, take a look at the following :

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/research-guides/medals-british-armed-services-gallantry.htm

Awards to British nationals often survive as a public announcement in the official government newspaper the London Gazette (ZJ 1). Depending on the award, a record of a citation or a recommendation may also survive. A citation or recommendation may sometimes survive in the service records of each armed service.

A citation is a brief official statement of why a medal was awarded (taken from the recommendation). A recommendation is usually a fuller statement supplied by a superior, usually a commanding officer.

Occasionally actual citations are published in the London Gazette (ZJ 1 or online), but not always at the same date as the announcement.

As your are doing, getting the service records is a great place to start

In the meantime, hopefully somebody else will have further information for you.

Do you have a photo of William during his service days you could share with us, to put a face to a name ?

Very best of luck.

Mark

Thank you for your reply, Mark.

Yes - it does all seem a mystery! I have got a photo from his South Lancashire Regiment time - I'll have a go at posting it anon.

Carolyn

I found a namesake of William, who won the MM but in WW1. Interestingly neither show up when I searched in the London Gazette or National archives link.

Perhaps William is listed in an old Commando Association newsletter.

BARROW publican William Roberts has the rare distinction of winning two gallantry medals and surviving the First World War.

http://www.nwemail.co.uk/2.5463/two-top-gallantry-awards-for-soldier-1.1152721

http://s1061.photobucket.com/user/Cally_Loois/media/imagejpg1_zps5ad7306f.jpg.html?filters[user]=142248861&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=0

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 29/12/2014 21:13:50

if you type a search such as "william roberts mc london gazette 1945" into your favourite search engine, this does return
London Gazette entries for Roberts, but not found your William yet.

eg via Google, this returns another namesake, but with the NewZealand forces.
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/37310/supplement/5102/data.pdf

So worth persevering.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 29/12/2014 21:24:22

Hi Carolyn,

SeeLoois wrote:

In his medal box is a commando dagger badge which first led me to question whether he was in 2 commando, but from reading this forum, I suspect that this badge is one my Grandad got in the 1950s as it has the word 'commando' over the top of the dagger.

The badge you describe, although very similar to the unique No2 Commando cap badge, is an old Commando Association cap badge.

There is a lot of misinformation about these badges on the internet with many 'dealers' describing the badge you have as a No2 Cdo badge.
The photos below show the differences

1. The No2 (Officers') cap badge is the dagger, pointing down, but with the letter 'S' either side of the dagger's handle.

2. The No2 (Other Ranks') cap badge is simply a dagger pointing down.

3. The Commando Association was a dagger, pointing down, the letter 'S' either side of the handle but with the word 'COMMANDO' in an arc, above the handle.

Nick

http://s1061.photobucket.com/user/Cally_Loois/media/imagejpg1_zps2c13d105.jpg.html?filters[user]=142248861&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=1

http://s1061.photobucket.com/user/Cally_Loois/media/imagejpg2_zpsc1d4b425.jpg.html?filters[user]=142248861&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=0

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 29/12/2014 21:32:35

Nick

Thank you for that - it was, I think, your explanation about this that I came across before which helped me work this one out already - but thank you so much for replying.

Best wishes

Carolyn

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 29/12/2014 23:31:47

Hi Carolyn,

Thanks, I'm pleased that I've been of assistance and that you understood my explanation...
I've viewed the photos you posted on Photobucket but, as you've already stated, no real clue to any Commando Service there.
As MarkH suggests, the real clues will be in his Service Record so you must push on with that application - if you need any help there please give me a shout - there will be quite a delay from your application going in to receiving the documents so the sooner you get it in the better.

As for your grandfather's medals, I would think the medal you describe as The Palestine Medal 1936 is the GSM 1918 (General Service Medal 1918 - 1962) with the Palestine Clasp; the medal is a circular silver medal with the King's head on the obverse and the reverse bears the standing winged figure of Victory in a Greek helmet, carrying a trident, bestowing a wreath on the emblems of the Army (the sword) and the RAF (the wings). The ribbon has a central stripe of green flanked by purple stripes.
The Palestine Clasp is a single metal bar that is worn across the ribbon - in your grandfather's case it should just bear the word 'PALESTINE' a later campaign/operation would bear the legend, 'PALESTINE 1945 - 48'.

In North Africa, British forces fought against the Germans and Italians between 10 June 1940 and 12 May 1943.
The desert conflict continued with the balance of power shifting between the 2 sides until the British eventually secured victory on 12 May 1943 when the remaining German forces surrendered at Tunis.

Criteria for the Africa Star: The Star is awarded for 1 or more days service in North Africa, Malta or Egypt between the above dates.

The qualifying areas for the Africa Star also include the earlier areas of conflict against the Italians in East Africa; those serving in Abyssinia, Sudan, Eritrea, Kenya or Somaliland between certain other specified dates will also qualify...

Service with either the 1st or 8th Army in North Africa during certain specified dates will qualify for award of the '1st Army' or '8th Army' clasp to be worn on the ribbon of the Africa Star.

Provided neither the 1st or 8th Army clasps have been qualified for, staff of the 18 Army Group Headquarters who served between certain specified dates under a specified General will qualify for award of the clasp 'North Africa 1942-43'...

Your grandfather must have qualified for the Star during the period 30 April 40 to 2 June 44 when his certificate of service states he was Home (UK) - again, only his Service Record will clarify these points, - but one day in theatre was enough to qualify.

Nick

Thank you for that information, Nick.

I've also noticed that his certificate of service omits the fact that he was a Dunkirk veteran - apparently he described arriving 'too late' at Dunkirk and having to crawl his way up the coast to get a boat back to the UK.

I notice that the South Lancs regiment were part of the same landing force as 4 Commando on D-Day. I'm hoping that his service record will clarify whether he remained with the commandos or trained and went back to his regiment for some reason.

Carolyn

Hi Carolyn,

It is obvious that you have already done quite a bit of reading and swatting up on your grandfather which is great. The wait for the service records can be long and frustrating - but worth it in the end.
It seems strange that a keen photographer should have no photos of his time during WW2, although the troops were not supposed to carry them. Nevertheless, looking at the photos in our Gallery it is obvious that they did and maybe, in some units, were encouraged to do do.
I have read somewhere that when Lt Col The Lord Lovat was the Commanding Officer of No4 Commando, he made it known that anyone found carrying a camera would be RTU'd (Returned to Unit - the ultimate punishment for the elite commando was to be returned to his parent unit).

What I would now encourage you to do is to look for tiny details - even if they seem insignificant to you - they may lead to the key to 'Pandora's Box'. Any place names, friend's names, bits of information, anecdotes etc...
You'd be surprised how a tiny snippet has turned out to be the missing piece which has lead us to completing the puzzle.

Nick

Medal update: he also seems to have been awarded the 1939-1945 Star.

Bizarrely though, I notice the ribbon on the Africa Star medal is not correct.

I've been through all the online medal records and can't find anything in relation to the Military Medal. Were any medals awarded unpublished at all? This is really puzzling me.

The long wait for Service Records begins!

Carolyn

The South Lancashire Regiment was redesigned as The Prince of Wales Volunteers and allocated service numbers 3644001 - 3701000 which ties in with your grandfathers number 3651864, his service dates would place him in The 1st Battalion as below.

Second World War

The 1st Battalion was shipped to France on the outbreak of war in 1939 as part of the 12th Infantry Brigade, 4th Infantry Division, British Expeditionary Force, returning to England via Dunkirk. After returning to the UK it became part of the 9th Infantry Brigade (which included the 1st Suffolks and 2nd East Yorks) attached to 3rd Infantry Division, nicknamed Monty's Ironsides. With this division, it landed at Sword Beach on D-Day and fought its way through the Normandy, the Netherlands and later the invasion of Germany. Throughout the North West Europe Campaign the 1st Battalion, South Lancashire Regiment suffered the highest casualty rates of the 3rd Infantry Division, losing 288 officers and men killed and over 1,000 wounded.

(His 'certificate of service' which lists that he was). Could possibly be as follows:

Home 14.1.32 to 14.9.33 (Not on Active Service)

India 15.9.33 to 29.4.40

Home 30.4.40 to 2.6.44 (Not on active service when African Star issued 10/07/1940 - 12/05/1941)

NWE 3.6.44 to 13.6.44 (France and Germany Star issued for active service between 06/06/1944 - 08/05/1945).

Home 14.6.44 to 7.1.45 (Not on Active Service).

NWE 8.1.45 to 9.3.45

Home 10.3.45 to 26.12.45 (Not on Active Service).

As mentioned by Mark your grandfathers service records might shine some more light?

Kevin