looking for help about My grandfathers time in WWII

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 30/01/2014 23:05:19

Hi i am looking into my Grandads time in WWII i was always told he was a Royal Marine Commando but i know very little ,i do have some pics and my mum has agreed to sign the paperwork as next of kin so we can get any info that way but until that arrives i thought i would look at any other ways to get any info ,His full name was James Wallace Spark and i hope someone on here will be able to tell me something from the pics
Many thanks :)
On talking to my mum she has confirmed that James drove a landing craft on D-DAY and it seemed he stayed on board as he mentioned going back to the big ships for food etc and she thinks he said that lasted for a few days maybe longer

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 29/01/2014 22:46:03

Pics of James

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 30/01/2014 23:07:43

:)

Hi Heather,
Welcome to the CVA Website & Forum.
I've had a good look at your photos but they don't give away too many clues, I'm afraid.

The first group photo you posted (with the names underneath) was probably taken at the RM Small Arms School, Browndown, Gosport.

All the other photos show your grandfather as a Royal Marine but not as a Royal Marine Commando!

What is the difference you ask?

Well, the Royal Marine Corps had been in existence as part of the Naval Service in 1755. However, it can trace its origins back as far as 1664...
During World War Two some 80,000 men served in the Royal Marines, and they continued to operate at sea and in land formations as RM Infantry Battalions and RM Artillery etc, but it wasn't until 1942 that we saw the formation of the first Royal Marines Commandos.

The Army Commandos had been formed in 1940, but in early 1942 'the powers that be' decided to convert some of the RM Infantry Battalions to become RM Commandos to fight alongside the, already established, Army Commandos.

Eventually ten RM Battalions were to become RM Cdos...

At that time, only the RM Cdos, together with their Army counterparts, were entitled to wear the Green Beret - other Royal Marines wore the Navy Blue Beret (with a red patch behind the cap badge).

At the end of hostilities it was decided, for various reasons, the Army Commandos would be disbanded and that the Royal Marine Corps would take over the Commando role.

Thus it was that all Royal Marines became commandos and these days all RMs complete commando training and are, therefore, all entitled to wear the Green Beret...

You also say that your grandfather sailed a Landing Craft on D-Day.
At least two thirds of the great fleet of Landing Craft Assault (LCA) that carried the infantry to the beaches were manned by Royal Marines, these, however, were not RM Cdos.
The photos of your grandfather wearing a beret, show the beret to be the dark blue beret (with the red cloth patch behind the cap badge).

Of course, your grandfather may have volunteered to join the Commandos after D-Day - hopefully his records will give you more information, but in the meantime, please feel free to ask any questions you may have and I'll try to answer them.

Nick

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 04/02/2014 21:46:49

Hi Heather,

thanks for posting those photos, in particular the group photos I'm sure they will get people with Royal Marine ancestors excited, hoping to spot their relative ! I did, but he wasn't there.
Do the backs of the photos contain any dates, notes or other markings that could help date them ?

The pictures of men in Duffel coats look like they are standing on some wet deck of some sort, but equally it could be somewhere on land ! I just don't know.

I can add that my granddad was also crew on a landing craft during operation Overlord. His record states it was LST 320[1], a Landing ship tank. He later transferred to the Army and 5 Commando. I recall him saying "they needed everyone they could get" as being the reason he became landing craft crew on D Day- prior to this he had been shot in the hand.

Expanding on what Nick wrote, I recently read some documents at the National Archives, in Kew, London concerning Landing craft crews for Overlord. DEFE 2/460 [2]

It contains a section dated 5 Sept. 1943, where the Prime Minister Winston Churchill says in a meeting of Quadrant [3]

"I feel strongly that the initial assault in Overlord should be strengthened by at least 25%"

.

This meant that more ships had to be built, men found to man them, and women to take over the jobs the men had been doing before being drafted. You really get the sense that the invasion is partly about allocating resources for construction of landing craft and men to man them, at the expense of other areas of the services and war economy.

The document later mentions recommendations that in order to provide more landing craft crew, to convert existing Army units and even a suggestion from Sir Charles Portal [4] that

"the balance of 2,600 men could possibly be provided from R.A.F resources"

Near the end, a justification perhaps, why some Royal Marine ancestors became landing craft crew

"We would draw attention to the very large proportion of Royal Marines that will, under our recommendations, be allocated to meet this requirement.
One great advantage of selecting Royal Marines in preference to Army or R.A.F personnel is that they will definitely retain their Royal Marine identity and will return to the corps when they are no longer required for this special service. The Army and Royal Air Force personnel will be discharged from their respective Services and entered as naval ratings"

That document answered a few questions I had, and while in hind sight it seems a little dry, in 1943 the Allied invasion of Europe had not yet happened, so its real drama, as they try and figure out how to pull this off.

[1] LST 320 http://www.navsource.org/archives/10/16/160320.htm
[2] National archives http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=C4194696
[3] Qudarant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_Conference,_1943
[4] Sir Charles Portal, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Portal,_1st_Viscount_Portal_of_Hungerford

Heather, if your grandfathers records mention COPRA, then see this http://forum.commandoveterans.org/cdoForum/posts/list/4246.page
I recall my grandfather's record mentioning

Pembroke IV

for the LST 320 period.

Pembroke IV was at Chatham/Great Yarmouth/Nore

According to this http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3780

Thank you so much both Nic and Mark for all your help and information,you are both brill ,i will go and look at the links when i am on my main computer later ,i have been told that at some point James was a Commando so maybe he did move after D-DAY ,or maybe it is just peoples memorys are getting a little muddled up , im hoping that when we get the records back it will give us some clues,i have found another pic today so will post that ,Mark i know what you mean by getting excited when photos appear i do exactly that ,and study each face just in case i see my Grandad there ,once again Thank you both so so much for all your help xx
The pic was in Grandads old things and i remember him showing it to me years ago and that the man at the window was a German POW

Hi Heather,

Just had a look at your most recent posting and the guy in the window would certainly appear to be a German.
On the other hand I can't see any Commando ensignia on your grandfather's uniform.

I hope that his service records give more detailed information about his service when you get them.
In the meantime, keep looking for, and posting, any other photos and documents - as I have said many times before, even what you might consider to be the most insignificant piece of trivia can be the key to a treasure chest of information...

Nick

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 05/02/2014 23:30:35

Hi Nick ,thanks for your reply ,i thought the same his uniform seems to be the same as his other pics ,and im not 100% but i think he told me that this was taken not that long after D-DAY so if the stories are right and he joined later on then he wouldn't be in Commando uniform i suppose ,Granddad only ever told me the odd little thing and he developed dementia in his last few years and he sadly passed away almost 5 years ago so i never got to ask to many questions ,you always think at the time i will ask again when hes up to it ,i will keep looking in case anything turns up one thing that has made me think we never saw any medal etc my mum doesn't remember any as she grew up but someone said about the ribbons showing on his uniform in his wedding pic , although i cant really make out properly on it ,i will try and find a better wedding pic and post it to see if you can tell me if that's what it is if you don't mind ,thanks again for your Help x :)

Hi Heather,

Yes he has got medal ribbons on his uniform on the wedding photo. I'll need to have a closer look to see what medals he is wearing as - because the photo is hand-tinted - the colours are quite soft which makes them a little more difficult to identify.

When was the wedding?

In the photo his beret appears to be green and, as I said previously, the Royal Marines wore Navy Blue berets, the Royal Marine Commandos wore green berets.
After the War, when the Army Commandos were disbanded, all the Royal Marines were eventually converted/trained into the Commando Role and, from that time, they all wore green berets.

nick