2 SS Brigade Signals

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 21/02/2013 16:36:25

These were my Dad's L/Cpl R W Lewis 2 Brigade Signals.

In the flesh these have a blueish tinge, not sure whether that's a pigment change over the years?

Regards Vic

Exceptionally rare to see one genuine example - let alone a pair - Great to see they are still in the family - Cherish them! Regards Mike.
PS - Any dates for your fathers service would be appreciated - these are early. I had the privilege to know a few veterans from SS Bde Signals including John Leahy (the CO), Charlie Hustwick etc - feel free to PM if you seek more info.

Hi Vic,

Very very nice, thanks for sharing.

I remember your dad gave the commando signals shoulder title to a sweetheart in Paris )

Cheers
JB

JB,

Yep, I remember him telling me this when I was kid, I think he regretted giving the titles away some 30 odd years later but at the time I guess he got caught up in the moment :)

Mike,

Brief summary of service from the records we recieved (not sure which period the badges come from but suspect from the Italy campaign).

Enlisted at Croydon in the Territorial Army and posted to 70th Battilion the Bed & Herts 24th September 1940

Transferred to The Royal Corps of Signals as a Signalman and transferred to 1st Operators training battalion 03 February 1942

Posted to 1st Holding Battalion 17th July 1942

Posted to Special Service Brigade Signal Troop 04 August 1942

Embarked UK for Sicily 15 August 1943

Disembarked UK 04 January 1944

Posted to Holding Operational Command 30 May 1944

Embarked UK for France 05 August 1944

Posted to Special Service Group Signals 07 August 1944

Embarked France for UK 07 September 1944

Embarked UK for East Africa 22 January 1945

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 25/02/2013 17:11:33

Vic

Very many thanks for this interesting insight. I have held a particular interest in Commando Signals and enjoyed many hours talking to John Leahy and Charlie Hustwick at Achnacarry and other reunions. Your father may have known two Beckett's who were Commando Signallers - (Peter was a Signals Officer but with 4 Cdo in NW Europe etc) though I do not think either were directly related to my brother Richard and I. Regards Mike

PS - I think reference to Embarking For France on 5 August 1944 could define service with either 1 Special Service/Commando Brigade or 4 Special Service Brigade - the two Commando Brigades in NW Europe. 2 Special Service/Commando Brigade served in the Mediterranean as you say, while 3 Special Service Brigade served in the Far East. Any thoughts on this would again be appreciated

Mike,

Thanks for the interest, and the PM of which I'll reply to. I have tried to research the movements of the Commando Signals but it's made more tricky because of the fact that there initally appeared to be 4 Brigade Signals formed 1,2,3 & 4 but they were not directly related to the main Commando 1,2,3 & 4 but were aligned to the respective Special Service Brigade containing various Commando. I know that 2 Brigade Signals were supporting 2 and 41RM Commando at Salerno and at some point my Dad was attached to either 1 or 4 Special Service Brigade Signals as you have mentioned. Studying the war diaries for the latter period post D Day I can only conclude that Commando Signallers were brought through from Holding Operational Command to backfill casualties from the initial wave. I have a post card of the Eiffel Tower and on the back it says "Paris 1944 Sept after we had reached the Seine, then in 45 Royal Marine Commando" so am not sure what Commando he was attached to before that period.

I think it was common, and often confusing for research into individuals movements, for elements of Commando Signallers from the Brigade to be attached to various Commando's and specific raiding opportunities when required to do so for whatever reason.

Regards Vic

Vic

You could always try the War Diaries at the National Archives to try and find further information. Signals related ones are:

WO 218/2 Bde. Signal Sec. 1940 Oct.- Dec.
WO 218/21 Bde. Signal Sec. 1941 Jan.- Dec.
WO 218/31 Bde. Signal Sec. 1942 Jan.- Dec.
WO 218/45 1 Special Service Bde. Signals 1943 Jan.- Dec.
WO 218/60 1 Special Service Bde. Signals 1944 Jan.- Oct.
WO 218/74 1 Commando Signal Tp. 1945 Jan.- Apr.

Cheers
Paul

Paul,

Thanks for this information, I've read some of WO 218/60 1 Special Service Bde. Signals 1944 Jan.- Oct. on the Pegasus archive site but haven't looked at the others. Will see if these can be downloaded or alternatively a visit to Kew when I have some time. I'm wondering whether 2 Brigade Signals from the period Jan to Dec 1943 exist?

Regards Vic

Hi Vic

They are not something that are downloadable unfortunately, you have to visit, but I'd strongly recommend it, it's fascinating and to handle the original documents is extremely evocative. The list above shows the only Cdo Signals related diaries held. They often get the descriptions wrong, or they can be misleading, so I'm not sure what these diaries actually cover it does seem odd that only 1 SSB seem to exist? I'm not sure how the signals were set up whether there was one 'HQ' that covered all SSBs or whether there was one section per SSB? If there was only one it would explain the lack of signals diaries for the others?

Cheers
Paul

Hello Vic / Paul
By the time I talked to John Leahy about the Commando Signals set up his health was failing a little. He was always a great help however. My own interest was with the signals interface with mixed Army / Royal Marine Commando Brigades. Not wanting to 'set hares running' with duff information - it appears possible that RM may have had more of a lead role in two of the Brigade HQ's and Army Commandos in the other two. I am not sure how this manifested itself though, and War Diaries are the best source to explore further. It may however help explain some inconsistency in record keeping re War Diaries. Vic, I can quite see how HOC (in its casualty clearing house roll) could lead to specialists signallers being posted between Special Service/Commando Brigades. It is useful to see probable evidence in your (Vic's) father's records. The more you look at Commando Signals the more complex it gets ... hence my interest. You will notice a lot of 'may be' 'appears' 'possible' 'not sure' and other weasel words in my note above. There is still much to find out.
Regards
Mike

Hiya,

I've been trying to find out more about my Grandad who was a RM Commando signaller, but I seem to have hit a bit of a wall. I had been trying to link him to a particular Commando, but I think as some of these posts suggest that they may have been attached to various units as needs demanded. He was also in Sicily and Northern France, so I'll post the link up here on the off-chance that it may throw some light on my own research.

http://www.commandoveterans.org/cdoForum/posts/list/1401.page#12748

Regards,

Ian

Hello Ian
Royal Marine records would probably benefit from special interpretation. Have you sought any assistance from either the Royal Marines Association or Royal Marines Historical Society? I would certainly try the latter and explain your predicament - offering to copy your father's papers to them if it helps and ask if they would mind assisting further

I know that volunteers used to man the telephone on a Thursday morning (you could try 023 9236 1617) though I am not sure of current arrangements

The current postal address (according to the website below) is:

Royal Marines Historical Society

Royal Marines Museum

Southsea

Hampshire

PO4 9PX

See the website:

http://www.royalmarinesmuseum.co.uk/royal-marines-historical-society

I hope this helps.
Mike

Note - you may be able to contact the Royal Marines Historical Society through the Royal Marines Museum as they are located on the same site. Royal Marines Museum contact details are on this site:

http://www.royalmarinesmuseum.co.uk/

I would be interested to hear how you get on if you try the above contacts

Thanks for that Mike,

I'll let you know how I get on.

regards,

Ian

Mike,

Further information on the dates for the badges below from the book "The Royal Corps of Signals: Unit Histories of the Corps (1920-2001) and Its Antecedents".

I also have the metal cap badge as mentioned below which is in two parts, the figure of Mercury "Jimmy" being separate from the other piece. Initially I though the badge was broken as it looks a rather crude break but could of been by design?

Heraldry and ceremonial:
Commando Signals wear the green beret of the Commandos. Signal Officers have a green backing on their wire-wove signals beret badge.
During the Second World War, commando signals wore two different types of signal badge. From March 1942, to June 1943, Special Service Brigade Signals wore a black square patch with a silver lightning bolt and dagger crossed with the letters S S on either side. Their patch was designed by A.J. Leahy, the first Commando Signals. This was replaced in July 1943 by a shoulder title with the words COMMAND SIGNALS in red on a navy blue background. This title was worn until mid 1945.
When the first Commandos were raised, their members wore no distinguishing badge. The bronze Royal Signals badge was unpopular with the volunteer signallers. The instrument mechanic of the original SS Brigade Signal Section altered his cap badge by sawing off the bronze ?Royal Corps of Signals? surrounding the figure of Mercury and rearranged the hooks so that it could be mounted in the new Commando green berets then being issued. This unofficial badge was approved by the OC and adopted by every member of the Commando Signals, and it was worn throughout the War.

Regards Vic

Vic
Many thanks for the update. It is very interesting and confirms what John Leahy told me several years ago - with one little difference - the embroidery of the dagger, lighting bolt and SS were in white cotton not silver bullion braid. Basically, they are as you picture them in your earlier postings. There is talk of a coloured variant in different coloured cottons (light blue knife and lightning with pink/red 'S' 'S') - if this exists it was not known to John who I questioned about it. That is not to say it doesn't exist - an image of one would be good (actual insignia) if any one on this site knows of one. As we know, this insignia is heavily reproduced. The book sounds very comprehensive - is it the one by C. Lord - if so is the publication date 2007 please, with 313 pages - there are various ones I think -sounds like I need a copy!
Regards
Mike