m1a1 thompson submachine gun

Hi Everyone

Just a quick introduction before i get onto my question my name is jack fletcher but always been called fletch. i was a serving army commando with 24 commando engineer regiment RE until last month when i left the forces to provide some stability for my family. I have a great respect for all commandos but especially commando fore fathers and especially the original commandos and how proud i am to have worn the coverted green beret and be part of the commando brotherhood.

I collect all ww2 commando militaria and have a nice collection of ww2 commando deactivated weapons, fairbairn & sykes fighting knives and insignia which brings me onto my questions i know that ww2 commandos used the m1928 thompson of different varients and have seen both written and picture evidence of this but did ww2 commandos use the M1A1 thompson as i have never heard of or seen photos of commandos with this weapon?

If anyone has the answer or knows any information it would be much appreciated.

Thankyou for taking the time to read this.

FLETCH

UNITED WE CONQUER

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 08/02/2013 07:49:39

Hi Fletch,
There's a pic of a marine with an M1 / M1A1 in the 46 (RM) Cdo gallery. Picture was taken in Germany "45.

Follow this link.

http://gallery.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/Royal+Marine+Commando+Units/46/IMG_0011_001.jpg.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1

Steve :)

Hello and welcome!

Would you be able to tell me what kind of gun my dad's holding in the front row, centre of this photo please? (I believe it's my dad, not verified as yet)

You say you have FS knives - original? Any photos? Any spares?? )

http://gallery.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/4/troop+photos/4+Cdo+D+troop+1941+jr.jpg.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1

Fletch

I have no idea if it is possible to identify the model of gun from their serial numbers, but I have the serial numbers of the Thompson sub machine guns issued circa 1942/3 to some of the Commandos in 5 troop No.2 Commando. There are 13 in total. Let me know if of any use.

Pete

Thankyou for your kind responses.

Steve - That picture link was a massive help thankyou and if the royal marines were issued with m1a1's then its more than likely army commandos were. looking like im going to have to purchases a deactivated m1a1 now for my collection

Eileen - If your referring to the man with the corporal chevrons then he is holding a M1928 Thompson submachine gun a beautiful weapon i still do not own a M1928 but do have a M1928A1 Thompson. regarding my FS knives i have a few 3rd pattern fs knives one 2nd pattern and quite alot of commemorative knives. i would love to own a 1st pattern but dont have £1500 spare at the moment haha. i also would like to own the BC41 knuckle duster knife that commandos used. I will get photos of my collection and post them on here when i get chance.

Pete - I know of other weapons that you can tell what weapon it was and even the year and place of manufacture by the serial number but i havent tried it with thompsons so they could be helpful thankyou.

Hi Fletch,
Take a look at the 3 Commando Troop photographs when they were attending the street fighting school at Limehouse. There are various Thompsons, all look like earlier models now in use with stick rather than drum magazines. See what you think?

http://gallery.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/3/trp+photos/

Interested in your thoughts of these at Wesel?

http://gallery.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/3/Edwin+Dunford+in+Ruins+of+Wessel+-+March+1945+1.jpg.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1

regards

Guy

Hi Guy

Had a look at the pictures and tey are great pictures in the 3 troop photos the majority of the thompsons i can see in them are the M1928 Thompson as they have the front grip and look to be of that shape where as the pictures of the commandos in wesel are m1928A1's and appears to be the variant with the smooth rather than the finned barrel and both have the cutts compensator. the commando with the pistol is holding the colt 1911 which was the standard pistol for commandos altho have heard of and seen a wide variety of pistols ( unissued) carried by commandos and have even heard of commandos using the winchester 1912 model trench gun in the middle east.

Regards

Jack

My dad's the one to his right, as we look at it, front row centre (behind the one set up on the ground) - probably the same gun - thanks!

Hi Eileen

Had another look at the picture and yes it would appear that your father is holding a m1928 thompson with a cutts compensator (it was a coil brake on the muzzle of the weapon to help with the muzzle climb which was a problem with thompsons especially on full automatic) it also appears that the weapon has a finned barrel aswel which helped with cooling the barrle down whilst firing. ive met a few ww2 commandos and they are a very special type of people and they dont make men like them anymore. you should be extremely proud of him and everything he did and achieved and men like him are what modern commandos aspire to be.

Thank you. I am. I can remember the day I found out my dad had been a Commando and how special that was.

I went running outside to tell all within earshot that my dad had won the War. I still think that ... along with a few others )

Fletch,

A veteran friend from A Troop, 46 (RM) Cdo knidly gave me a list of the weapons used by the unit.

'Weapons, I suppose standard infantry. 303 rifle, Bren gun, ?American Tommy Gun?, .45 pistol (perhaps to some units). I don?t think we were issued with the Sten gun. PIAT (anti-tank) weapon, 2? mortar, hand grenades. Also, we tried out the K gun (on active service), a light machine gun, but I don?t know if it was a general issue.'

Is there anything there to add to your 'wish list'? )

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 09/02/2013 19:27:06

Attached is the TSMG issue to 5 troop No.2 Commando circa 1942/43. Taken from my Father's 5 troop notebook he kept at the time.

The Commandos named are as follows:

2930945 Sgt. Len Perkins No.2 Cdo 5 troop 'A' section HQ : 2nd Bn Liverpool Scots TA volunteering for No.4 Ind. Coy, before being attached to No.2 Commando 5 troop on its formation. He was awarded the Military Medal in 1945 for Gallant and distinguished services in the field. http://gallery.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/2/5+troop/Group++Rt+-+BD+copy.jpg.html

1837879 Pte L. 'Jock' Cree No.2 Cdo 5 troop 'A' section HQ : http://gallery.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/2/5+troop/5+Troop/5+Troop+gibralter+1943+negative.jpg.html

3192224 Pte. Doug Fitton No.2 Cdo 5 troop 'A'section no.1 sub section: http://gallery.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/2/5+troop/Commandos_1_.jpg.html

5781361 Pte. Ron Eley No.2 Cdo 5 troop 'A' Section no.1 sub section: http://gallery.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/2/5+troop/Loch+Fyne+1942.JPG.html

3136018 L/Cpl. Frank Healey No.2 Cdo 5 troop 'A' Section no.2 sub section: http://gallery.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/2/training/trng+cdos+copy.jpg.html

14241793 L/Cpl. A. Davies No.2 Cdo 5 troop 'A' section no.2 sub section: http://gallery.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/2/5+troop/5+Troop/5+Troop+gibralter+1943+negative.jpg.html

3654948 Sgt. W. 'Tan' Rudge No.2 Cdo 5 troop 'B' section HQ: attached from the S. Lancs Regt. Awarded the DCM for gallantry at Dragone Hill, Salerno 13th Sept 1943 http://gallery.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/2/5+troop/Monopoli+1944.JPG.html

2826201 Pte. Leslie 'titch' Ainslie No.2 Cdo 5 troop 'B' section HQ: http://gallery.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/2/Mid+-+Titch+Ainsley_+Rt+-+Sgt+O_Miller++2Trp.jpg.html

3655822 Pte E. Sheard No.2 Cdo 5 troop HQ runner:
http://gallery.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/2/5+troop/5+Troop/5+Troop+gibralter+1943+negative.jpg.html

6968214 L/Cpl. John Hunter No.2 Cdo 5 troop 'B'section no.3 sub section: killed in action at Salerno 13th Sept. 1943 http://gallery.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/2/In+Remembrance/John+Hunter+kia.jpg.html

5779882 Pte. John Barber No.2 Cdo 5 troop 'B' section no. 3 sub section: http://gallery.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/2/5+troop/5+Troop/5+Troop+gibralter+1943+negative.jpg.html

3654571 L/Cpl. H. Slater No.2 Cdo 5 troop 'B' section no. 4 sub section: http://gallery.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/2/5+troop/5+Troop/5+Troop+gibralter+1943+negative.jpg.html

6853905 Pte. Frederick 'Joe' Campling No.2 Cdo 5 troop 'B' section no.4 sub section: http://gallery.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/2/5+troop/ken_vic_joe+and+others.jpg.html

The Thompson Machine Carbines (as the British called them in the early part of the war), also known as Thompson Submachine Guns, listed on the page above are all made by SAVAGE (thus the "S-" prefix to the serial number.)

I believe that they were all Model 1928 (not the 1928A1, M1 or M1A1) due to the low serial numbers. Some would likely have had the vertical fore-grip and some later production examples would have had the horizontal fore-grip.

By April 30, 1942, Britain had bought 514,000 Thompsons. Only 108,000 of these guns actually made it to the UK as so many were lost in the Battle of the Atlantic. The first issue was to the secret Home Guard Auxilliary Units (guerilla stay behind parties in case the UK was invaded by the Germans). Then the Commandos. They were in short supply for awhile (50 available at one point as I recall reading) so they were pooled i.e. drawn out by Commando units going on raids and returned to stores afterwards.

The low serial numbers on the page above suggest that these are all Model 1928 (not 1928A1).

"Savage manufactured an estimated total of 746,932 Model 1928 and M1928A1 Thompsons from April, 1940 until October, 1942." (Page 314 THE ULTIMATE THOMPSON BOOK by Mr. Tracie L. Hill 2009 (833 pages!)

I have deactivated examples of the M1928A1 (ex-USSR); M1 and M1A1 (ex-Africa probably).

Interestingly my father who served as a Lieutenant attached to No. 4 Commando in 1943, was entitled to carry a Thompson but he did not like them and instead carried a Lee-Enfield No. 1 Mk. III* which had been carried by a soldier of the Essex Scottish on the Dieppe Raid in August 1942 and was written off. He fixed it, carried it and then brought it home to Canada in 1944 and I have that rifle in my collection as well as his F-S Fighting Knife (2nd pattern with name etched on blade by Wilkinson's) and his revolver and P1907 sword bayonet.

Very interested in this thread, especially your mention of your Dad being attached to No.4 - my Dad was in No.4.

Just been re-reading his Service Records - they embarked today for Dieppe.

This is my de-activated Thompson M1 (Auto- Ordinance Corporation Bridgeport Connecticut) with serial no. 17754 strike through and new no.84559

Kevin