Service records and documents: George Norton Barnes Part 1 Army Commandos

This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 22/09/2012 21:05:44

Rather unexpectedly, we have received my late grandfathers service records from the Royal Marines and Army. Taking only a few weeks, not the 6 months+ we expected.
A very nice surprise indeed !

The records contain much more than I hoped, they confirm many broad details, but miss out a lot of details, and contradict themselves a little.
I don't know where to begin, so I'm going to post up the documents for others to cast their eyes over as a series, hopefully giving people time to comment and help me piece together a timeline and also perhaps they can provide clues for other researchers.

My grandfather liked a joke, but was certainly not a bragger, or one to invent stories. On the other hand he did suffer a few mini strokes, and memories do fade or get confused. All the stories I did get out of him were over many years, trying to extract a few more details. I'm hoping to find documentary evidence to prove or disprove some of his stories, and maybe find out a little more what he and others endured.

In a broad summary

The documents confirm he joined the Royal Marines, was in 40 and 41 Commando and then on 6th August 1944 gets transferred to the Army via the Territorial army Buffs/Royal Fusilliers ending up in
"HO Cmdo" and finishing the war with 5 Commando. He always said he was transferred due to flat feet, yet the TA form shows him "A1" and why does he end up in "HO Cmdo" ?

Oddly for the family, the Royal Marines show he enlisted in Bristol on 24th March 1942 which means he was 18 years, 7 months, 14 days. I confirmed the other day with my grandmother that he always said he joined around 16 and half years old, I heard this from him myself.

Also missing is any mention of being a Sgt. and also being demoted to ranks - an unrelated officer apparently bawled them out after they came back from a bad raid, words were exchanged and a hat knocked off was the story. My grandmother told me she saw Sgt. in my grandfathers paybook, but sadly that book was thrown out.

First instalment of documents

1st Document
I'm starting by posting two from the end of the war: "Notification of Impending release" from the Army this is dated 15/11/1946 and signed by a Lt Col. of 5 Commando. Of note is it mentions
"4 years with Commando units".
This document ties up with 2 pictures of him on this site showing 5 Commando.

http://www.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/5/India+or+Burma+2.jpg.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1
http://www.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/5/Group+of+No5+Cdo_e.jpg.html

Q I noticed a Disembarkation state of 14th Dec. 1946, would this have been stamped when he arrived back ?
Q Can anybody read the name of the Col. ?
Q "Age and service group 45" - what does that mean ?
Q Does Ashford mean he passed through Ashford, Kent ?
Q At the bottom of the form it refers to other documents, any idea what these are ?
Q On none of the other documents do they mention any training he received, just left blank. Was this typical of Commando units ?
Q Any other comments ?

2nd document from the Army lists time spent in Service.

This form is interesting as it mentions "Sicily 4/12" George always claimed they were parachuted by accident into the sea off Sicily by an American aircraft. I find no mention of Sicily on the other records.
The same form mentions N Africa 1 year, which ties up with stories of being in Egypt, Tobruk and I believe he said they flew from Tunisia to Sicily. But again no mention of North Africa on the other records.

Q Any comments ?

Update: Royal marine records here http://www.commandoveterans.org/cdoForum/posts/list/3577.page

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 05/09/2012 12:56:57

Hi Mark,

Just a few general answers to start off...

From my experience the Royal Marine's records are always very sparse and don't contain much detail at all - which may account for the lack of details about training.

I also know of a few others that joined up underage but were found out - their actual date of Attestation was deferred until they were 'of age' but they were signed up to the TA.

Your Grandfather would have been transferred to the HO Cdo (HOC / Holding Operational Commando), after qualifying as a commando, to maintain his newly acquired fitness & skills etc., whilst waiting to be sent to an Operational Commando Unit as a reinforcement or to replace a casualty...

'Age and service group 45' - this grouping was the system used to determine who was due for repatriation to the UK, when they should go and who should go first... I believe it was based on their age and the year they arrived overseas (in this case Burma, India, Hong Kong).

The interesting thing about the records is that it has been stamped & signed as No5 Cdo in November 1946, eventhough, by this time, No1 & No5 Cdo had merged to form 1/5 Cdo due to the casualties suffered, lack of reinforcements and the repatriation of troops, ...
Perhaps Julie W may be able to help with the name of the CO?

Nick

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 05/09/2012 21:08:21

3rd document George's Commando service certificate

Note it is signed by "Lt Col Commanding No 1/5 Commando", same signature as on the notification of impending release NIR, but dated 4/11/1946 compared to 15/11/46 for the NIR form.
Perhaps they did not have a 1/5 commando stamp to use on the NIR form that NIC queries.

Note no mention of George's service with Royal Marines which is hinted at on the NIR form with "4 years with Commando units", and proven with documents to follow.

Note Only India and HongKong are listed, NorthAfrica and Sicily are not mentioned. Could he not have been not with the Commandos then, despite the NIR showing "4 years with Commando units"
Nor is Burma mentioned.

4th document thank you letter from combined ops addressed to "Barnes"

5th document Army form B200 continuation sheet - showing going on reserve and discharged 30/6/1955
Q Does it say in handwriting under personal occurrence "Medical A1 ? "

Q On the NIR form I just noticed disembarkation is 14/12/46, did it take a month to come from HongKong to the UK, given the NIR is dated 15/11/46 ?
Q Do both documents have the signature of Laycock as in Maj. General Robert Laycock of the famed Laycock papers ?

http://www.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/Royal+Marine+Commando+Units/45+RM+Commando/Maj+Gen+Sir+Robert+_Lucky_+Laycock_+chief+of+Combined+Operations_+talking+to+Royal+Marine+Commandos+during+an+inspection.jpg.html

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 05/09/2012 22:11:05

the following 3 Army documents relate to the transfer of George from the Royal Marine commandos to the Army on 6th August 1944. Note its to the Buffs, then the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers which he keeps until his end of service.

This fits in with George's story of being on a flat bottomed Landing ship Tank LST during D Day, going to a US beach, dropping of soldiers, bringing back wounded. My grandmother told me he had seen US soldiers falling in the water in full kit.

6th document TA record of service paper

Q Why would somebody transfer from Royal Marines to Army ? On a to follow document you see postings to commandos.
Q Why a TA unit ?
Q As he joins the Army Commandos, would he have had to retake the Achnacarry course ? He always told me flat feet was why he was moved.

7th document TA record of service paper
Q He is shown as being in the UK from 7/8/1945 until 6/3/1945. This must include time taken to sail to India.
Q He is shown as being in HongKong for nearly a year 9/1/1946 to 13/12/1946. This must include time taken to sail from HongKong to the UK. George told me they went via the Suez canal and took several months.

8th document form b102
Q Is this form saying 2/2/1947 put on to reserve list ? "released to class Z" ?

More to follow

Hi Mark,

What a wonderful surprise to receive your grandfather's service records so quickly.

I can help with answers to a couple of your questions:

I'm pretty sure that the signature of the Lt Col on the Notification of Impending Release is that of Robin Stuart.

It does seem to have taken a month to travel from Hong Kong back to the UK. My cousin was in the same release group as your grandfather and he has written in his pay book that he embarked in Hong Kong on 12 November 1946 & disembarked in Liverpool on 13 December 1946.

By this time, I believe (although I'm not certain) that the Commando Holding Centre had been disbanded & men returning from overseas were sent to the HQ of their parent regiment...? Perhaps someone can confirm this. Would it make sense for your grandfather in relation to Ashford?

Regards,

Julie

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 06/09/2012 13:06:15

Hi Julie thanks.

I still find it hard to read the signature, but it could begin with an R, and Robin Stuart is the right rank and unit. Adds an extra dimension seeing the face of the person that signed the document.

Here he is
Lt Col C. R. M. Stuart, MBE.
http://www.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/WW2/The+Commanders/Lt+Col+Stuart_+CO+No5+Cdo.jpg.html

I find a few online references for a modern ship taking about a month from HK to UK

Shipping to Hong Kong: 26 days at sea
http://www.movecorp.co.uk/intl/hong_kong.html

George's record says on the "SS Empress of Australia" 15/11/1946

Julie could that be a different ship to your Cousin as you say his service book was 12/11/1946. Can you upload a copy of your cousin pay book ? That would be fascinating reading. It seems according to my grandmother, my granddad threw out his paybook years ago.

After World War II the Empress of Australia worked world wide as a troop ship in every theater of war, including carrying military personnel to Pusan during the Korean War.
In 1946 while anchoring off Liverpool her anchor tangled with that of a cargo liner Debrett; the two ships collided and seven tugs were needed to separate them. In December of that year, she was re-fitted for peace-time trooping, offering more comfortable accommodations for the troops; however she was never repainted and remained in the wartime grey color scheme. She continued to carry troops up to another overhaul in Liverpool in 1951. The following year -- after her 70th trooping voyage -- she was sold.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMS_Empress_of_Australia_(1919)

George told told that he returned home to UK via Singapore and the suez canal.

the canal was still half blocked with sunken ships. The Journey back to England took "about 3 months" George thought, perhaps that is what it felt like, but the record shows a month. A Google search shows modern ships take around a month

The SS Empress of Australia came back to port in south of England he thought, the customs officers made them wait a bit then let them through without checking. their kit bags were stuffed with fags

I don't recall Ashford ever being mentioned. He said at war's end, they were billeted in Motherwell, near Glasgow, Scotland. groups of us stayed in civilian loggings in houses for 4 or 5 weeks, maybe longer. We wore civilian clothes and had nothing to do. The local people were very good to us, people would buy us drinks, let us get into cinema for free. Very welcomed.

The SS Empress of Australia rang a bell so I've just had a look at my cousin's service records again & found that he travelled back to the UK on that ship too (copy uploaded). Perhaps they boarded the ship on the 12th but didn't set sail until the 15th. I imagine the voyage probably would have felt more like 3 months when you were eager to be back home!

I've also uploaded a scan of the relevant page from my cousin's paybook, one of the few pages that actually has anything written on it!

Thanks for sharing your grandfather's recollections.

Julie

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 06/09/2012 15:04:16

Julie thanks for the attachments.

That is the first pay book I have seen, thanks. And yes it is a bit sparse, but does have some dates.

The service record fragment is a different format than I have, "statement of service and regimental entries"

I wonder:

Q if Larry knew George ? Did he ever go to Bristol after the war ? My nan told me my granddad used to meet up with a few old comrades, but this was maybe 30 years ago.
Q If there some passenger list for SS Empress of Australia at this time
Q Is there a record of the journey of SS Empress of Australia
Q Did Larry go to Motherwell ?

As an aside, I just noticed from wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMS_Empress_of_Australia_(1919)
that SS Empress of Australia ferried troops to Korea, where my friends dad fought.

This led to to think with HongKong and the New Territories bordering China we should note that while WW2 had ended, China's full-scale civil war resumed in 1946
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Civil_War and a few years later the Korean war began. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War
So while 5 Commando was in HongKong, more fighting was raging in China. I heard stories from George about smuggling going on across the border, stealing trucks, salt etc.

Hi Mark,
I've had a quick look at your grandfather's Service Records and have note a couple of points:

The 9th Battalion, Royal East Kent Regiment (The Buffs), formed in 1940 - disbanded 1946, was the Training Battalion for the Buffs.
In January 1944 the 9th Bn moved to Ireland - as part of 164 Brigade of the 55th Division.
July 1944 saw the Battalion re-named as the 9th Buffs ITC (Infantry Training Centre) and was based in Enniskillen.

From here it would appear that George was attached to the Holding Operational Commando (Wrexham) on 06 Nov 1944.
The RZMRS is simply the shorthand of the authority for George to be sent to India - there are many that I have come across and am afraid I cannot explain what I stands for
I would guess that he embarked for India around the 07 Mar 45 and disembarked in India about the 02 Apr 45 - this would tie in with the sea journey lasting approx one month.

George was posted in to India CBD, Nasik, on the X(iv) list which, if you look at the X list explanation, states:

the X(iv) list comprises all unposted reinforcements and incoming reinforcement drafts...
Reinforcements in transit between the Base and a unit remain on X (iv) (and the Base Depot
strength) until they actually reach and are taken on the strength by the unit to which they are
proceeding.

http://www.commandoveterans.org/cdoForum/posts/list/990.page

I believe that George was actually based at the British base at Deolali (Camp Deolali) which was a large base just outside the holy city of Nasik (Nashik).

Camp Deolali served as:
a Transit Camp,
an Indian-British General Hospital (IBGH) - mostly treating patients suffering from Malaria etc,
a Reinforcement Camp,
a Rest Camp,
a Home Bound Transit Camp (HBTC)
I haven't worked out what the acronym CBD stands for but it could be something as simple as: Camp, British, Deolali...
George was posted to the Holding Operational Commando (Overseas) and Taken on Strength on 16 Aug 1945 on the authority of the Commando Wing SEAC.

George was posted to No5 Cdo and Taken on Strength on 09 Jan 1946 and remained X(i)

the X(i) list comprises all ranks posted to fill vacancies in authorised War Establishments of
a Headquarters or an extra-regimental unit (such as a base depot, school etc.).

George was taken ill 30 July 1946 and was bad enough to be taken back beyond the 'Regimental' First Aid Post

the X(ii) list comprises all ranks evacuated on medical grounds beyond Regimental First
Aid Post. Personnel so evacuated cease to be on the effective strength of their units.

But he was back again, 6 days later, on 05 Aug 1946 but still on the X(i) list...

After this he was posted to the Y list in readiness for re-pat & de-mob.

What I did notice though is that on the bottom of the page there are two entries regarding Amendment Slips - these are the slips, raised at the Unit, detailing any changes & occurances that have happened and these slips would be sent back to the parent Regiment/Depot so that the Service Records could be annotated accordingly.

Apparently, there were 19 slips sent on the 21 July 45 and 12 sent back on 18 Dec 46 however, it would seem that these have not been added to George's Records...

Looking at the rest of George's records, I can possibly see why our mutual friend may have thought that these were not George's Records as it shows his service as being 18 months in the UK, 12 months in North Africa, 4 months in Sicily, 12 months in India and 5 months in Hong Kong.
Now we know that No5 Cdo never served in North Africa or Sicily, but of course, Georgew was there as A RM Cdo so perhaps that's why the confusion arrived.

Nick

Ashford was one of the Infantry Records Centres - hence George being de-mobbed through Ashford.

Nick

Remaining army documents, these are the service records Nic used.

8th document
Sevice and Casualty form with a few charges.

9th document
Statement of service - this confirms only the very broad outline of stories George told me.

Fascinating stuff Nick!

I never heard George mention the Buffs, certainly he mentioned Enniskillen Fusiliers, the strange name -to me as a teenager- stuck in my memory. I vaguely recall him having been in Northern Ireland.

Holding Operational Commando (Wrexham) on 06 Nov 1944.

George occasionally mentioned being an instructor at Wrexham. He talked about a certain causality rate being allowed, and how some US Rangers were shot up on a River at Wrexham. The wind apparently blew up and there were hit by the fixed machine gun that had previously been firing over their heads.

George certainly went to India, he talked about it a lot to us as kids, funny stories. Particularly Poonah and in his pronunciation"do la li" again funny sounding names for kids from Bristol in the early eighties ! So that is Camp Deolali. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deolali
The Wikipedia article says Deolali is in Maharashtra. This photo shows George http://www.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/5/Group+of+No5+Cdo_e.jpg.html, recently I commented that I guessed the

"The railway carriages in the background have the letters MSM, which may be Madras and South Mahratta (MSM) Railways "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madras_and_Southern_Mahratta_Railway

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 09/09/2012 12:44:49

George was posted to the Holding Operational Commando (Overseas) and Taken on Strength on 16 Aug 1945 on the authority of the Commando Wing SEAC

"Emperor Hirohito gave a recorded radio address to the Empire on August 15"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan

So Japan surrendered and he gets posted the next day. This fits in with a story of parachuting, that I thought he did with 5 Commando but from Nic's reading it seems he was with some unknown unit at this time. Hence confusion.

George told me at the end of the war, they were on ships possibly going to be part of the invasion of Malaysia, but then Japan surrendered. He and some other men were flown up to HongKong - a fair distance given the aircraft of the day - and at some point in time he and 3 others were parachuted onto " Kai Tak airport in the afternoon around 2pm". He thought one of the men was called Capt. King -probably the only time he gave me a name. They eventually took the Star Ferry much to the surprise of the Ferryman and at some point reached Stanley Prison on the other side of HongKong island. Some of the civilian inmates at the camp were in a terrible state, with the Japanese Guards still there. My wife lived in HongKong, so as well as the family, he told her this story, and in August 2005 we visited Stanley town in HongKong and showed him photos when we got back. Very hot as it was when he claimed to be there.
As to why they were sent, he would only say "to have a look around" and something about cannon fodder. In 2012 it might sound like James Bond to be parachuted in, but in those days people were a little more expendable.

George was posted to No5 Cdo and Taken on Strength on 09 Jan 1946 and remained X(i)

If George was posted to 5 Commando in 1946, after the war, then how does this same photo of him with 5 Commando and Sgt Ted Tharme -George has his hand on Ted's shoulder - fit in ?
http://www.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/5/Group+of+No5+Cdo_e.jpg.html

George was taken ill 30 July 1946 and was bad enough to be taken back beyond the 'Regimental' First Aid Post

George told the family several times that in Hong Kong after the war, they were helping to repair the mains electricity supply. Some switch was set to off, but apparently it was faulty and actually live. George touched it and was thrown through the air, a massive swelling appeared on his head from the electricity jolt. This may be the incident that causes him to be in hospital.

Apparently, there were 19 slips sent on the 21 July 45 and 12 sent back on 18 Dec 46 however, it would seem that these have not been added to George's Records...

Nic, on which document did you discover this ? So I wonder if these still exist ?

So am I right in thinking, that based on the service records from Nov. 1944 to 9th Jan 1946, George was associated with Commandos, but its unclear which units, only in Jan 46 is he assigned to 5 Commando, but he is still
X(i) so not with 5 Commando all the time ? Despite a number of charges, George gets a good report on his Notification of impending release form.

He claimed he was involved in raids on the Burma coast "in out couple of days". But wouldn't say much about it, other than everything rotting in the jungle, and Japanese training friendly dogs to find them and later lead Japanese soldiers back to them.
Speculation, but this fit in with him being associated with Commandos.

So what actual units was George with in 1944/1946 ?

These Army service records should be view in the context that George was transferred from the Royal Marines Commandos, according to George due to "flat feet" These documents to be posted.

markh wrote:Remaining army documents, these are the service records Nic used.

I wish they were - these have a smidge more info than the documents I was working with!

It looks like these records havethe missing amendments incorporated - which explains why they're not all in chronological order...

I'm going to have to sit down again and see if they tell us anything extra.

Nick