No 2 Cdo Cap badge X 3 differing types

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 29/04/2012 15:43:06

Hi Everyone

I wonder if anyone can shine some light on these.

No 2 cdo Cap badge.

Left

Officers cap badge I think a restrike not WW2 ?

Centre

Officers cap badge maybe WW2? note different retaining bar and colour from the other.

Right

Other ranks deffinately a restrike this example is solid silver......has anyone else seen one in silver?

All opinions and comments are welcome.

regards

John M

Hi John

I am not sure if any of those are actually genuine No.2 Commando badges. The first 2 with the word Commando above were issued post war in the 50s and later became popular with all 2 Cdo Veterans. Bob Bishop explained it all in a post and Eric Buckmaster has also confirmed - Officers had the dagger and SS initial shoulder patch which they simply attached to their beret, OR's simply had the dagger :

http://www.commandoveterans.org/cdoForum/posts/list/36.page

Many examples can be seen in the 2 Cdo gallery:

http://www.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/2/2+cdo+officers/Lieut+R+Bavister.jpg.html

http://www.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/2/J_Browning+2.jpg.html

http://www.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/2/023+copy.jpg.html

and finally my uncle, my father, and a comrade taken whilst my father recovering from injuries :

http://www.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/2/5+troop/Ken+Mac_+Joe+Rogers_+Tommy+Everitt.jpg.html

Thanks Pete

Yes there is a lot of confusion generally over these.

I did think they were all post war but have heard stories of them being hand made from NAAFI spoons etc

Mostly folk lore I think.

The silver one is quite nice though..........it must have been made especially for someone.

Thanks & regards

john M

Hi John

Not Folklore. Originally the OR's did make the daggers from spoons as Bob says in that forum thread. Eric also confirmed this. However I am not sure whether this would have continued after deployment to Gibraltar and onwards

Pete

Thanks again Pete.

Yes .......I wonder if there are any pictures of these 'Spoon' badges surviving?

I don't recall ever seeing one....they are a rare bird. I wonder how they attached them to the uniform?

Regards
John M

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 29/04/2012 17:11:34

As Pete says, left and middle definitely post war veteran's associate badges, no issue badges had the word COMMANDO over the top. Right hand probably modern reproduction of later war officers' pattern. Would be nice to see a picture of the back?

All ORs wore just a plain dagger with no SS. The 2 Cdo early volunteers did indeed make them from NAAFI Spoons, it's rumoured some of the REME lads helped out to attach sliders or lugs. By Gibraltar a standard pattern was available from the stores which was cast (modern repros are usually die-struck i.e. hollow backed)

Officers also had spoon made badges early on, before being replaced with either a cast standard pattern or a bullion embroidered cloth cap badge.

There are examples of spoon made badges and the bullion badge in the gallery belong to Ted Land:

http://www.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/Commando+Badges+and+Memorabilia/2+Cdo/No2+Cmd-metal+insignia-owner+Edward+Land.JPG.html

cheers
Belly

Hi Pete

You made me curious so I have delved a bit deeper...........the elusive 'Spoon' below.

I have reproduced a page from Peter Taylors book Allied and Special Forces Insignia 2000

Copyright Peter Taylor 2000.
(Reproduced here for education and research only)

Note the piece about cast brass version 1944/45 and other conflicting bits.

Regards
John M

Thanks Belly

Previous post was before I had read your response..........as you say I think they are all post war issues. The OR's one has a slightly hollow back with two lugs but no pin. It is as I said solid silver not marked but that is not unusual (probably not heavy enough) but as a retired Jeweller I am convinced it is sliver. Probably made for a special occasion or as a gift.

The brass one is also a bit rarer than the usual copy.

Interesting though.

thanks and regards

John M

John M wrote:

..........as you say I think they are all post war issues. The OR's one has a slightly hollow back with two lugs but no pin.

John,
I think you've missed a very important point that both Pete & Paul made - the badge on the right (you say it's Silver) has the letters SS either side of the dagger handle, therefore it is a No2 Cdo OFFICER's cap badge.

The other two badges are Commando Association badges.

None of them are Other Ranks' - a plain dagger (no words or letters).

Nick

Thanks Nick

I think I've got it sorted now........I'm getting confused with all these reprose and patterns etc.

A good job someone is paying attention :D

regards

John M

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 12/07/2020 09:21:53

Very intersting subject full of myths.

There are a few open items. Some say that 2 cdo badges were only hand made but likely especially after heavy losses in Italy the badges were also made on a commercial basis.

It is said that the officers also worn the black bullion sleeve badge on the beret including Bob Bishops quote. I have never seen a war time pic of this.

I doubt that the black White sleeve patch in Peter Taylors books is original.

Finally I have also seen 2 cdo officers just wearing the dagger without SS on the beret.

There is a stunning pic of Eric Groves green beret in the album with his OR dagger badge.
http://gallery.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/2/Eric+Groves+MM/eric+groves+2+cdo+beret.jpg.html

Cheers,

JB

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 10/05/2012 08:44:39

JB wrote:Very intersting subject full of myths.

There are a few open items. Some say that 2 cdo badges were only hand made but likely especially after heavy losses in Italy the badges were also made on a commercial basis.

It is said that the officers also worn the black bullion sleeve badge on the beret including Bob Bishops quote. I have never seen a war time pic of this.

I doubt that the black White sleeve patch in Peter Taylors books is original.

Finally I have also seen 2 cdo officers just wearing the dagger without SS on the beret. http://www.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/2/Lt_Col__Newman_VC.jpg.html

There is a stunning pic of Eric Groves green beret in the album with his OR dagger badge.

Cheers,

JB

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 12/07/2020 09:31:46

The photo of Lt Col. Newman you refer to was taken before the issue of the Green Beret. He is wearing a Tam o Shanter. It is in this period ie from formation of No.2 Commando up until the St Nazaire raid 28th March 1942 that you see the officers and OR's wearing a variety of headgear as in other Commandos. Look in the 5 troop and 6 troop albums to see examples of this in the troop photos. In many of those early photos the officers are seen wearing forage caps or peaked caps. The OR's are often wearing Tam o Shanters or in the case of some of those from Scottish Regiments - the Glengarry. However in all those early photos where an officer is wearing a Tam o Shanter you can see that the badge is the dagger without the SS initials, as with the OR's. Now as to what that was made of in these early days, or how it was made, is difficult from the early photos to tell but certainly the dagger is on a black patch as in this case of the 2 i/c of No.2 Cdo pre St Nazaire Major Bill Copland: http://gallery.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/2/Bill+-12+resiz.jpg.html
or this photo of Lt. 'Hoppy' Hopwood 5 troop http://gallery.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/2/Gay+Black+and+Hopwood+-20+resiz.jpg.html

Certainly from the time the Green Beret was issued at the end of 1942 there is a distinct change and all the officers wearing a Green Beret have the classic dagger with the SS initials. I am wondering whether it was in this early change over period that some Officers simply stuck their shoulder patch onto their berets. Certainly by the end of the war their badges looked manufactured as can be seen byphotos of Lt's. Nicholl, Bavister, and Whitfield (note the slight variation in his dagger to the others) probably taken c.1945. Here is one: http://gallery.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/2/Lieut+G+F+Whitfield.jpg.html

I have no doubt whatsoever of the validity of what both Bob Bishop and Eric Buckmaster both recalled about the OR's originally having to make their Tam o Shanter dagger from a teaspoon, or the fact that initially after the issue of the Green Beret , Officers just stuck the shoulder patch with the SS initials and dagger onto their beret. Once the new issue of manufactured items arrived they would have simply swapped them. As to the timeline or specifics well I suppose during a World War they would have had other things on their mind. I think your use of the word "myth" was an unfortunate one in the circumstances

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 10/05/2012 15:33:29

Thanks Pete,

May be the word " myth" is inappropriate.

I also do not doubt at all that the officers have also worn bullion sleeve patch on beret as also confirmed by Bishop and Buckmaster, I only have not yet seen a picture.

I would also love to see the backing of ww2 era commercially made example.

Cheers
JB

Hi
I have been following this thread regarding the "spoon dagger " as you can see my avatar is a picture of my Dads.

Here is a link to the thread discussing how I came to have it .

http://www.commandoveterans.org/cdoForum/posts/list/15/34.page#457

Unfortunately it is no longer in my possession. :( Last Xmas when our family got together I returned all of the items that I had brought to Ft.William , to my brothers and sister as we all have some keepsakes . Somehow the dagger has gone missing . I keep hoping it will turn up again but so far no luck . So this is the only picture I have .