War Diaries

Do any of you know if a War Diary was kept at Achnacarry please? Also, was there a Diary for no. 5 or 1/5 during 1946? I've tried searching every permutation I can think of on the National Archives' website but drawn a blank.

Thanks,

Julie

Julie,
As you know National Archives catalogue no: WO 218/85 covers No 5 Cdo War Diaries from Jan45 - Dec 45.
Presumably, because VJ day was in August 45 there was no need for a War Diary to continue as such after that date.
Maybe there is a record listed under Unit Diary or some such?

Nick

Thanks Nick.
You're right, there probably isn't a Diary for this period. It's frustrating not being able to find out more about events in Hong Kong after 31 December 1945 though!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 23/01/2012 17:59:23

Julie,
Don't know if these will throw up anything - they are not No5 specific but are all related to 3 Commando Bridade 1945 on.

NA Catalogue nos:

CAB/80/55/12
DEFE 2/1685
DEFE 2 /1686
WO/203/1792

Nick

I've looked through some of them in the past but CAB/80/55/12 is a new one on me.
You are the master!
Thanks again Nick

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 24/01/2012 01:08:23

Julie,
I did a quick search for Hong Kong 45 - 46 and it threw up a few more - lots are absolutely irrelevant but I started plodding through the 179 WO references but, would you believe it, my boss thinks I should work for him and not The CVA!

There may be something tucked away in here though...

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/searchresults.asp?SearchInit=0&txtsearchterm=Hong+Kong&txtfirstdate=1945&txtlastdate=1946&txtrestriction=&hdnsorttype=Reference&image1.x=28&image1.y=15

Nick

Has anyone seen the War Diaries for 4 Commando ?

Peter,

The National Archives catalogue serial numbers for the No4 Cdo diaries are:

DEFE 2/40 - covering July 40 - Sep 45
WO 218/4 - July - Nov 40
WO 218/24 - Feb - Dec 41
WO 218/35 - Jan - Dec 42
WO 218/52 - Jan - Dec 43
WO 218/66 - Jan - May, Aug - Dec 44

Sorry I can't explain the gaps!

You can order them online but it is much cheaper to visit Kew and photograph them yourself.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/about/
i know Julie W has visited the NA at Kew - maybe she can give you any more useful info regarding searching the archives.

Nick

Thanks Nic,
As I live in the Isle of Man I'm afraid a visit to Kew involves flights and hotels and all of a sudden the word 'cheaper' disappears out the window ! I will wait to see what Julie has to say before trying the online option.

Hi Peter,

Ordering copies online from the National Archives can be really expensive although if you were planning to do this, the DEFE 2/40 is probably just a duplicate of the information in all the WO references (there were several copies of each War Diary sent to different places during the War & 2 sets of each seem to be held at the Archives).

In the past I've tried to order copies of pages covering specific dates online but the Archives people won't do this; I think you have to order a copy of the whole document unfortunately.

There are people who will go to Kew & photograph documents on your behalf - generally a cheaper option - I once saw someone offering to do this on http://ww2talk.com/

I hope that helps!

Julie

Hello All
The National Army Museum in Chelsea has a good archive on the WW2 army Commandos donated by Henry Brown.

I can remember the No 4 Commando was most interesting with maps and lists of names etc.

I think Lovat was a bit meticulous that way.

I think they even had his D-Day map.

Worth a visit.

best Regards

John M

Interesting that the War Diary of 4 Commando comes up!

As you will know I am still in the process of finding out who the people are on the photo at the grave of Joseph Ball of No 4 Commando. Please see the topic with his name. In the book The Fighting Fourth by Jimmy Dunning it says that Joseph was killed on the 3rd of June 1945 by a trigger happy Dutch soldier.

My investigations have revealed that this happend on the evening of the 2nd to the 3rd of June at 10.15 pm at the Grote Markt (the Big Square/Big Market Place) in Bergen op Zoom. At that specific time there was a big fight between French Commandos and members of the Dutch Navy. A witness at that time stated that three men were killed (so apperently not only Joseph!) and that several were wounded. A patrol of 30 men dispersed the people on the square and the police cordoned it off to prevent people going there. Today I did a search in an other archive and found a paper which confirmed the above.

This is all the archives have revealed so far. No names of the men killed, of which Jospeh was presumeably/apperently one; nothing about the reason for the fight; nothing about it in the newspapers of that week in June 1945; nothing found in the archives of the Military Court at that time of a conviction of the shooter; nothing found in the archive of the military who were in charge in Bergen op Zoom at that time. There were messages of unattended bicycles and even a goat on the loose, but nothing about something serious as this. And helas, still no names to people on the photo.

With the latest edition of Despatches, Geoff Murray has sent a short letter of mine with the photo of the burial of Joseph and the photo of his grave with the people, to the last surviving veterans of No 4 Commando. Perhaps they know more of it all and can perhaps identify the sergeant on it and/or the people. Or perhaps themselves or others on the photo of the actual burial.

The War Diary of No 4 Commando must be the best source of all on this I suppose. I know that No 4 went to Germany shortly after the 8th of May 1945 and that it had French Commandos under its command. But what is shortly after the 8th? A month later? Earlier? And if they had already left, why were Joseph and the French still there? As a rear party perhaps? More questions than answers!
Julie W has already offered me to have a look at the War Diary of No 4 when she visits the National Archives again (thank you Julie!), but every other help is much appriciated! The archives of the British Military Police may be a lead as I read that they were there. The MP of the RAF was named! Perhaps Nic can help on that one?

The search isn't over until it is over, so I bash on regardless!

My father, Dennis Cooper was in 4 Commando and was in Bergen-op-Zoom at the time. I can recall him telling me that one Commando was stabbed and killed during a fight between the Commandos and some Dutch resistance fighters.

Peter,

This is a story I haven't found in any archive or report so far. I am not surpised to be honest. When there is no mention about a big fight in which apperently three people were killed, I don't suppose there will be something there about this incident. That is why the war diary of No 4 Commando becomes more and more important, as I suppose that the fight but surely the incident you mentioned must be in there.

Or is there a mix up in facts? Was Joseph Ball not killed by a trigger happy Dutch soldier on the 2nd/3rd of June 1945, but was he the man stabbed and killed by the Dutch resistance men? Could be, as the big fight was between French Commandos and members of the Dutch Navy.

Can you recall if your father told anything about the date the stabbing incident happend?

I noticed that your father was in 1 Troop. Joseph Ball was as well! Do you perhaps have photos of the Troop with the names of the men on them? Photos from the time in Bergen op Zoom or before that. Photos were Joseph Ball could be on. I am asking this as Julia Thorn and her brother NIgel Ball have no photo at all.

Sadly Jack, I don't have any photos of my father's time in Europe. They were all told not to take cameras with them but he seems to be one of those who actually obeyed the order !
As you say, after so many years these stories become mixed up and confused with one report contradicting another. Let's hope the War Diaries shed some light on the matter.