No.5 Commando St. Margaret's Bay, Kent 1940

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 31/01/2012 01:33:19

I was reading the September 1940 Dover Defence Scheme (WO 166/1343) and chanced upon references to the role of No.5 Commando. Interestingly it seems No.5 was assigned to protect the St. Margarets Bay area, a couple of miles to the north of Dover. It seems that they also had the function of protecting the heavy guns in the area - presumably this must refer to the static cross-channel guns 'Winnie' and 'Pooh' and the railway guns. There is also a reference (not included below) to them having responsibility for a 'Flame Barrage' at St. Margarets.

I've transcribed the two pages in the Scheme below. They don't make the most exciting reading and the grid refs don't really mean very much without research, but still may be of interest. The lighthouse referred to is still very much in existence and sometimes open to the public in summer.

Appendix "R" to Dover Defence Scheme, 1940.

Defence Scheme, St Margaret?s Bay Area ("B" Sector)

This scheme holds good only as long as No. 5 Commando is in the area.

1) Area is bounded on the North by A.6 Sub-Area; to NE by A.2 Su-Area and to S.W. by troops holding the Perimeter defences Dover, (see para.3 and Appendix Tracing "A" and Appendix Tracing "R".)

2) Troops in Area.

1) No. 5 Commando
2) "F" Coy, 6 (BD) Bn The Buffs, less 1 pl.
3) Royal Marine Siege Battery.
4) Det. 34 Sig Trng Regt. R.A. ? Lighthouse 787611
5) Det. 34 Sig Trng Regt. RA ? Martin Mill 776657
6) Detachments of Home Guard at:-
a) St. Margaret's Bay
b) Martin
c) Guston

All of the above troops for ground defence are under the operational Command of O.C. No.5 Commando.

In addition, the following A.A. and searchlight posns are in the area and in the event of ground defence also come under the operational Command of O.C. No.5 Commando: -

Heavy AA D.2 - 791611

L.A.A. 13 - 790627 14 - 794622 15 - 790618 16 - 785622 9 - 787616 3 - 783613 1 - 795607

S/L 2/4 - 812629 2/3 - 795610 3/6 - 788630

3) All units and dets in the area with the exception of No.5 Commando have a static defence role as under: -

(1) RM. Siege Bty are solely responsible for the manning of their guns and in the event of an emergency will defend them to the last.

(2) "F" Coy, 6 (BD) Buffs, less 1 pl, will be responsible for the manning of pillboxes around the siege guns and for operating the Lyon Lights on St. Margaret?s beach and for any other guards found necessary in St. Margaret's at Cliffe, St. Margaret's Bay and Lighthouse.

(3) Det, 34th Sig Trng Rgt. R.A. at Lighthouse 798611, protection of searchlight.

(4) Det, 34th Sig Trng Rgt. R.A. at Martin Mill, the protection of the Pumping Station and Rd Block 777652.

(5) Dets of Home Guard. Protection of their own localities against parachute or airborne troops in immediate vicinity of their location.

4) No.5 Commando is primarily responsible for the siege and heavy guns in the area. These at present consist of:-
1) R.M. Siege Bty.
2) Bty of 5.5" guns of Fixed Defences at 813629

In order to carry out this role No.5 Commando must be prepared to carry out the following: -

1) The prompt destruction of any parachute or airborne enemy troops landing in the area.

2) The immediate recapture of St. Margaret"s Bay Beach should it be lost.

To carry out No. (1) a wide dispersion is necessary. Disposition of troops will be as under: -

2 Troops 5 Commando area GUSTON
2 Troops 5 Commando area EAST LANGDON
2 Troops 5 Commando area MARTIN

These Troops will carry out active patrolling duty during day and night.

To carry out (2) dispositions will be taken up as follows: -

1 Troop will be responsible for the beach defence of St. Margaret's Bay (including manning of 2 MMG?s)

1 Troop will be in immediate support on line 807622 to 810625 to cover the sea approaches with A.T. rifle fire and be prepared to carry out an immediate counter-attack on the beach.

2 Troops will be held in reserve around H.Q. Commando.

Communications.

HQ No.5 Commando is at Curfew House, St. Margaret?s at Cliffe.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 16/10/2011 22:40:48

The state of St. Margaret's Bay beach following the commando training operations can be seen in this Pathe News reel:

http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=47759

Come to think about it, a few years ago I found a fired 1940 dated .303 cartridge in a rock pool at St. Margarets. I wonder if it was dropped by a member of 5 Commando?

fascinating ,what does the area look like now?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 16/10/2011 19:59:11

A fascinating post Phil, very many thanks.

Recent photo of St Mags Bay attached.

Regards

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 17/10/2011 00:19:30

St. Margaret's was virtually evacuated by civilians early in WW2 and given over almost entirely to the military. It was regularly subjected to bombing and even a couple of the long-range cross-channel guns hit the village. Those houses one can see in the film must have been where the car parks are now, they must have been completely demolished not long after the war.

Curfew House on Kingsdown Road, the local HQ of No.5 Commando, is still standing and has been turned into flats.

One word of advice about St. Margarets, don't try and use your mobile phone there as it always connects to a French network given its proximity to the continent. It costs an arm and a leg!

Thanks for that Phil, as you may know I've a particular interest in all things concerning No5 Cdo.
I have seen a Commando training film which features, what I now know to be, St Margaret's

nick

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 17/10/2011 00:20:39

Phil,
Any chance you can photograph Curfew House that we may display this former Commando HQ in our Gallery?

Thanks in anticipation,

Nick

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 21/10/2011 01:14:25

Certainly Nick. I'm off this week so I'll see what I can do. The precise address appears to be 14 Kingsdown Road, St. Margarets-at-Cliffe, Dover, CT15 2AZ. It appears to very close to the Red Lion pub, I expect that establishment was full of service men and commandos during the war - if only walls could talk!

On a slightly different note, if anyone is interested in the topic of the cross-channel guns on both sides of the channel, After The Battle 29 is a very good history with some fascinating images. Sadly no mention of No.5 Commando I'm afraid.

Hi Phil,
Thanks for that.
As you say it seems to be 14 Kingsdown Rd - a white building with square porch facing straight on to the road. The Primary School is next door.

The Red Lion appears to be a 'traditional' Freehouse, you never know it may have some photos of 'the lads' on the walls - maybe worth a visit...

Nick

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 21/10/2011 00:23:47

Cheers Nick, any excuse for a pint is a good enough reason to have one, in my book.

I've just found another small snippet in the HQ Diary with reference to the Lyminge Battalion Home Guard:

"St Margaret's Bay Section will be under the operational command of C.C. No.5 Independent Commando who is responsible for maintaining close liaison".

The telephone exchange number was "Naval 118"

Their Code Names were "LAVU" and "FAPA" (all local units had a four letter code name).

They seem to have arrived in the area in September 40 and were certainly present in October as they are mentioned in war diary distribution lists. However, in November defence of Dover was passed over to the 130th Infantry Brigade and I do not have their diary to check for references I'm afraid, so I cannot guess when they departed.

Thanks Phil,
I know that your research is not first and foremost with the Commandos so I'm very grateful that you're prepared to share your findings with us and are prepared to go out of your way on my behalf.

thanks

Nick

A bus fare later and here we are... Curfew House, St. Margarets-at-Cliffe, Dover, Kent, HQ for No.5 Commando during their posting to St. Margaret's Bay in September 1940.

It's right next to the library and still displays the house name on a plaque. The building now appears to be the Royal British Legion local headquarters and a private residence. I forced myself into the adjacent Red Lion pub to see if there were any photos, but of course there were none. Still, the real ales were good...

Here are the two original war diary pages for you covering the above. I transcribed them in the first post here, but I though you chaps might like them anyway.

The only other references I've found are scattered here and there and I've quoted them above. If I find any more I'll let you know.

'Cheers' Phil,

Curfew House now uploaded into the Gallery:
http://www.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/WW2/buildings/Curfew+House+2011.jpg.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1

Many thanks,
Nick

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 13/02/2012 02:52:42

Over the next few days I'll try and dig out some of the more interesting bits and pieces relating to No.5 Commando in St. Margaret's Bay from their War Diary. For now I can confirm that they were stationed there from the 14th September to the 8th November and they took over Curfew House as seen above straight away.

Their duties were more interesting than simply patrolling the cliffs - they obtained a couple of boats from Admiral Ramsay and undertook sea-borne patrols. They also undertook practice attacks on other Dover garrison regiments including the 3rd Bn Irish Guards who were based at the Western Heights (my particular area of interest!). Some of these attacks were dressed 'in civilian clothes'. They even captured a drifting enemy barrage balloon and mounted guards on crashed aircraft.

There are also a few mentions of conferences with Major Churchill and a couple of names that do not seem to be on the Nominal Roll of No.5 here.