History of Commando Green Beret and Insignia?

Hmm, They don't exactly look dressed for North Africa in that photo :wink:

Hi

Idris Jones of No1 Commando recently gave me his Green Beret and I am sure that he said that he wore it when he was in N.Africa, however I am actually going to see him this Saturday so I will ask him if this was the case.

Cheers Andy

Hi

Re the photo in the gallery.

I have re-checked and it is definitely dated 18 Nov 1942. As I stated before in this thread sometimes dates can be confused and remembered wrongly. I have had this photo in my possession for about eight years and must admit I was surprised at the 'precise' nature f the date. It is one of the few I have that are so precisely dated.
There maybe some explanation? Perhaps it was taken off duty before or after ops. Perhaps the men didn't have their berets or chose not to wear? It s a riddle.

Even the most reliable sources can sometimes be mistaken.

I work to the maxim.

'History is five percent fact ninety five percent guesswork'

Regards to all

John M

Hi all

I have amended the text of the photo and hope that one day someone will spot one of their relatives in there and have more precise information. I would just say that this is by no means the first occasion that a date on a photo, or even a name, has been queried, and I have no doubt it won't be the last. My gut feeling is that it might simply be 18th Nov 1941 rather than '42 but who knows for sure. Hopefully the amendation to the detail of the photo will meet with your approval:

http://www.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/1/4+Troop+No+1+Cdo18th+November+1942.jpg.html

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 01/05/2012 13:08:02

Thanks Pete

The re-wording might jog someones memory.

I will go through my HB correspondence to see if I can shed anymore light on it.

Regards

John M

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 04/06/2012 12:24:16

Does anybody know when the green beret was first worn in Achnacarry by the staff and when it was first issued to the trainees after completion of the training?

In the book The Commandos, D-day and after by Donald Gilchrist he writes that when he came to Achnacarry in January 1942 to do the training: "We were herded across the hump-backed railway bridge by instructors who stood out, dressed in camouflaged two shade green jackets. Their equipment was blancoed white with brasses burnished and they were wearing green berets." (Page 113). On page 115 he writes: "The weather in June 1942 was better. (...) Earlier, in January and February, the thirty-six-hour scheme had been a hail-storming nightmare." Which to me means that he did his training in those months of 1942, after which he stayed on as an instructor. So in January 1942 the instructors in Achnacarry were already wearing the green beret?

In the book Commandos by Russell Miller and the editors of Time-Life books, there is on page 60 a photo of Lcol Vaughan talking to major Wiiliam Darby of the US Rangers. Vaughan is wearing a cap. The caption with the photo states that it was in July 1942. I can't image that the instructors were already wearing the green beret while their boss wasn't!

Then Gilchrist writes: "He was wearing a green beret with the silver badge of the Lovat Scouts. There was no mistaking the Chief of Clan Fraser, Lord Lovat." So this was in June 1942. Which means that Lord Lovat was already wearing a green beret even before the beret was even officialy introduced in October 1942. Lord Lovat is wearing the beret on the photos of No 4 Commando in Troon. So how can it be that Lord Lovat was already wearing the green beret in June 1942, when Vaughan was not in July 1942? If the caption in the mentioned book is right of course!

Another thing. It is said that the trainees speed marched from Spean Bridge to Achnacarry. So a run and walk movement. In several books (Castle Commando by Donald Gilchrist on page 18; Fighting with the Commandos by Stan Scott on page 46) I have read that they were marched, not speed marched to Achnacarry. I have even read that trainees were picked up by trucks half way to Achnacarry. The well known black and white film about the training in Achnacarry shows the trainees marching, not speed marching. In the book Commando Tactics by Stephen Bull it says on page 105: "(...) and were then harried along a fast speed march. (...) as we doubled along the final stretch...". When we were visiting Achnacarry last November I asked Harold Nethersole about this and he told me that he did the "walk and run thing." I can image that training changed during the years that Achnacarry was in function, but what was normally the case: marching or speed marching?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 04/06/2012 13:32:57

Hi Jack

I have sent off a message to Eric Buckmaster to see if he recalls how he made his way from the train station to Achnacarry. He was on one of the first courses in 1942 after it opened.

As regards the Instructors and the Green Beret we have a photo which is dated that might be of interest where the 2 Instructors are not wearing Green Berets:

http://www.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/WW2/Commando+Training/sgt+blint+and+others.jpg.html

All the best

Pete

Just had a very quick reply from Eric which makes a lot of sense :

With regard to the proceedure for arrivals at Spean Bridge, I suspect it would depend on Numbers and the time of the Day.

I arrived some time before my Course started, I got to Spean Bridge on my own late in the evening. As I did not have a Clue where the place was, I telephoned, told them I was there, and a young Officer came out to collect me in a Jeep. I was temporarally put into a hut with the Policemen who had not passed the previous Course.

In the Army we travelled wearing our Back Pack, Side Pack and Water bottle. We would also carry our Kit Bags which were usually full.

Some Groups arriving would have been marched as a taster of the training to come. Dependant again on who might be handling the details that day. If the weather was too Bad and Transport was available then they might have been collected. ( I think that they only had some four 5 Ton trucks there to cover all purposes ).

I would think that it would have been a march rather than " Speed March " at the time of arrival. The Kits Bags would have been a limiting factor at that initial stage, wearing a Gas Cape as a Waterproof. Kit bags could have been Trucked and the Men marched with Packs etc.

To sum up different People would have had different experiences.

In addition Eric adds this about the Green Beret:

With regard to the " Green Beret " it was not in existance whilst I was at Achnacarry ( Mid 1942 ).

I went there wearing my RASC Forage Cap. and came away still wearing it. It was when I arrived at "Boscombe" near Bournemouth to join 2 Commando that I was given a Tam O Shanter and a Teaspoon, and told to make my own Cap Badge. ( Before they became available as an issue, we made them with a Nail file ).

We had gone back to Ayr within a fortnight of my joining the Unit, and it was whilst we were there that the Green Beret was issued. ( Many people preferred the Tam o Shanter ).

Pete and Eric,

Thanks a lot for this information. As you say Pete, it makes a lot of sense and for me it does clear up a lot of "smoke" about when the green beret was issued to trainees after going through Achnacarry.

Regards,

Jack

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 05/06/2012 22:47:12

Pete,

A bit off topic but I find the quote of Eric Buckmaster interesting in the sense that he confirms that at one point in time 2 commando badges became available as issue, I wonder when and how they looked like. Were they die struck or die cast? JB

"I went there wearing my RASC Forage Cap. and came away still wearing it. It was when I arrived at "Boscombe" near Bournemouth to join 2 Commando that I was given a Tam O Shanter and a Teaspoon, and told to make my own Cap Badge. ( Before they became available as an issue, we made them with a Nail file ). "

JB

Des Rochford has told me that when he joined in Gibraltar in the spring of 43 he was issued with a 'mass produced' badge. He described it as having a solid (no hollow back) which implies they were cast and not die struck.

I'm always amazed as to why none of these seem to surface, yet the earlier, rarer hand made items seem to be more common in collections. I think they have one in the Spean Bridge Hotel museum (see picture) but you can't see the back. The accompanying label worried me to as maybe it's a replica too!

Cheers
Paul