George Watts, RN Commando 'G' [Troop Ship sank off N. Africa enroute to Sicily]

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 30/10/2010 15:50:08

My late father, George Watts, was, I believe, on a ship that sank off North Africa on the way to Sicily. He told us it was a Danish Troop ship, and gave us a name which was something like the 'Bansentoldegun'. However, we have no idea of the spelling, or any further information. I know he was on small boats landing men on the coast of Italy and collecting them afterwards. He never talked about the war, and my daughter got the above information from him shortly before he died in 2006. I wonder if anyone could shed any light on this, as I'm very keen to find out what I can about this period of history and his part in it. I have no idea what unit he was in, or anything about this time. Many thanks for any help. [

hi Sue,

I'm still working on the ship - no joy so far though but I won't give up yet.
are you sure there's no other info - no matter how insignificant it may seem - that you can tell us?

Nick

Dear Nick, thank you so much for having a go! I was just starting to answer this, and lost it, so you might get two answers here. That was the only information I had, unfortunately; the spelling of the ship's name is phonetic, we were just guessing, he certainly said it was a Danish ship, and I wonder if it was commandeered by the allies and re-named? he said it was bombed, and he lost his dagger and his pistol. I'd also like to know what Unit Dad was in, is there any way I can find this out? For example by typing his name into some search engine? I have no idea how to go about all this. But many thanks, anyway! best wishes.

Hi Sue,

yes I guessed that the ship was 'phonetic' and have tried various combinations - it's a great game...

Alas I wish there was a search engine into which you could type someone's name and come up with the 'goods' but there isn't - I believe most of those that fought in WW1 are now listed (but that doesn't help us).

You mentioned dagger and pistol which certainly suggests 'special forces' and the fact that he was 'landing and collecting men from the Italian coast' suggests Combined Operations as well.

One of the problems is what is meant by 'small boats'?

I wonder did your father mean Landing Craft or maybe the small but fast Fairmile motor launches or even (as in the Levant Schooner Flotilla) local sailing boats?

Do you have any photos of your father in uniform?
And I know you've said that you have no other information but do you know which Service he was in -I'm guessing he was in either the Royal Navy or the Royal Marines and not the Army?

Does he have any living brothers or sisters etc that would remember anything that could point us in the right direction?

remember, anything no matter how insignificant it may seem can unlock realms of info...

Nick

Well, I have photos of him in both Army and Navy uniform, which always confused me as I couldn't understand how he could be in wore both! He was originally, I believe, in the Sherwood Foresters, which is a Nottingham regiment so that would make sense (we're from Nottingham). With regard to what kind of boats, I have no idea. He just said 'small boats' I think. His brother and sister are both now deceased, so no help there, I'm afraid.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 02/10/2010 21:58:09

Sue,

As you know he was in the Foresters I would suggest you apply to the MoD for his Army service records.
You know three vital pieces of information that will allow them to identify the correct records - His name, date of birth and his Regiment...
His Army Service Record will give us a lot to work on (hopefully)!
you see we're getting there - slowly...

Presuming that you are the next of kin fill out the form and send it to the address below

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/AboutDefence/CorporatePublications/PersonnelPublications/ServiceRecords/RequestFormsForServicePersonnelDetailsNextOfKinForm.htm

Army Personnel Centre Secretariat
Disclosures 2
Mail Point 515
Kentigern House
65 Brown Street
Glasgow G2 8EX

Any problems or queries please let us know,

nick

Dear Nick - many thanks for your help - I've printed off the form and will get it filled in. My mother is still living, and is immediate next of kin, so I'll get her to sign it this week, and send it off. I hope it will get a bit more information! Best wishes, Sue

Sue,
I'm still chasing this blasted ship!
I've tried various spellings and combinations and then tried translating them from Danish to see if they are 'proper' words - you wouldn't believe what I've come up with...

One that made me chuckle was "Woolly Bear" but I can't see a ship being called that.

Nick

I quite like the sound of "Woolly Bear". I'm in the process of sorting out the forms, got a bit more information from my mother, which was that Dad was first in the Royal Navy, then moved over to the Naval Commandos, then for some reason - she says he didn't want to be posted to the far , but my daughter said he told her there were too many naval men - he joined the Sherwood Foresters. Apparently when the ship went down they were stuck in North Africa for three weeks waiting for transport to Sicily, and then he was on these small boats - would they be rowing boats? - dropping soldiers behind enemy lines, then finding them and taking them back...we'll see what his records come up with - I think I'll have to fill out two lots, navy and army, but haven't got round to further than getting my mother's signature.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 09/10/2010 00:03:13

hi Sue,
Well getting which service he was in first is certainly a step in the right direction.
The RN Commando (originally known as RN Beach Parties) worked in small groups under a Beach Master (RN Officer). Generally, and much to the annoyance of some of the Admiralty bigwigs, they wore khaki battledress just like the army (see link)

http://www.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/rn+cdos/RN+Commando+Beach+Party.jpg.html

Why your dad should leave the RN to join the Sherwood Foresters is a puzzle - as you say you'll have to apply for both sets of Service Records.

Anyway keep at it and good luck,

Nick

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 09/10/2010 00:04:45

Sue,

here's more info on RN Commandos

http://www.relaysystem.co.uk/id3.html

Nick

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 08/10/2010 20:44:30

Hi Sue,

Well I think I've got the ship...
You said Danish but the one I found was Dutch

Your phonetic name of the ship was:
Bansentoldegun - BAN SENT OLDEGUN.
my thought was that the 'sent' part may stand for 'Saint' and that's what I tried to base my search on and came up with:

MARNIX VAN SINT ALDEGONDE

attacked and sunk in the Med, 6 Nov 1943

http://www.burmastar.org.uk/marnix.htm

Cheers,
Nick

NIC,

Good effort with the ship, had a go myself but failed and have been following this thread.

Regards Vic

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 09/10/2010 17:52:56

Hi Sue,

Here is more info on the Combined Ops landings on Sicily - there are references to Landing Craft [which are definitely 'small boats'] so it is possible that these are what your father was referring to.

National Archives wrote:Operations Torch and Husky

COHQ [Combined Operations Headquarters] was heavily involved in the planning for the Torch landings in North Africa, conducted on a large scale but facing only limited opposition from Vichy French defences. A more challenging operation was the Husky landings in Sicily, which drew heavily on the lessons of Dieppe and the specialised landing craft and techniques now being developed. For example, Combined Operations Pilotage Parties, including Royal Navy navigation specialists and Royal Engineer officers, had been formed, trained to conduct night beach reconnaissance missions from submarines and provide pilotage for the leading landing craft during the assault. The Beach Pilotage School was HMS James Cook at Glen Caladh, Tighnabruaich.

Beach Commandos and Beach Groups were also available to organise the flow of men and equipment across the beaches, with a school established as HMS Armadillo at Ardentinny on Loch Long. That said, some of the Beach units used in Husky were locally trained in the Mediterranean, which led to some differences in doctrine. With regards to the widening variety of landing craft available, two types modified to act as inshore gunnery platforms made their operational debut, the LCG - Landing Craft Gun - armed with a pair of 4.7" guns and the LCT(R) - Landing Craft Tank (Rocket) - each armed with 1,044 5" rockets to be fired in salvos in a crash area shoot during the final assault run-in.

and an link to an excellant article about the RN Cdos - see especialy the paragraph on Italy

http://www.btinternet.com/~keith.oakley/rncommando/rnhist.htm

nick

Thanks so much, Nick! Only just checked my e-mails, that's fantastic. My own e-mails aren't working at the moment, so I could only read and not reply from my yahoo address. I don't spend much time on the computer. Sorry aboyut the mother/daughter confusion, I am a bit scattered...But this is great, and I can see how it happened. My mother and daughter will be thrilled to bits. Thanks again!