Canadian Commando

Folks,

I initially posted this under a different forum, but it got no traction there whatsoever. This forum seems to be moving a little better and I hope someone will see it here and have a thought or recommendation.

I am looking for any information regarding Canadian soldiers being recruited for "Commando" units beginning in Canada in late 1940? After volunteering training continued in Scotland in early 1941?

I have a personal document outlining the presence of British Officers at Camp Borden, Ontario on such a recruitment drive with Canadian soldiers volunteering (about 100) from a number of Canadian regiments and undergoing initial Commando training in Nova Scotia (Camp Debert), Newfoundland and the Hudson Bay area after Christmas 1940 and into early 1941 (and maybe later).

If so, can you tell me how they would've been integrated with British units once in the UK?I am following a thread of a story which "may" include Glenmore Lodge in Aviemore or another camp nearby, as well as "another camp in Scotland" (undetermined at this point).

Glenmore Lodge may indicate SOE involvement, but the source states "Commando" specifically, not SOE. He also mentions 8 small raids into Norway in early 1941 and 1 in Holland (the Walcheren area) and that many/all of these small raids were not documented and the participants "sworn to secrecy forever". Training was completed "at the end of January 1941" and raiding began shortly thereafter.

Researching the standard Commando records reveals no raids during this time period (Feb-April 1941) in any of these locations which leads me to 1 of 3 conclusions: (1) they never happened (2) they were CDO raids never acknowledged for very good reasons and required "plausible deniability" for governments in exile and/or (3) they belonged to another organization....SOE, "other"....what "other" I have no idea.

A friend of the source was killed on the 4th or 5th raid (a British soldier not a Canadian) which leads me to the obvious conclusion it was a composite unit. I have found no evidence of this man in CWGC records or elsewhere.

Any thoughts would be most heartily appreciated. I've been through many records PRO Kew, Ottawa, Oslo and interviewed all sorts of folks over 15 years with only 2 tangible pieces of evidence surfacing; a letter to me regarding the details and the results of an interview with a Norwegian Resistance member in Oslo. I've had other small successes, but nothing I can hang my hat on definitively.

The names of the two participants mentioned above are:

1. Pte (or LCpl) James F. Connell (Canada)

2. John Henderson (England) (rank unknown, but likely Pte, LCpl or other junior rank). Henderson was supposedly killed on operations in Norway during the period mentioned above (Feb thru April 1941).

Many thanks in advance,

Jeff O'Connell

This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 22/07/2010 14:14:10

Hi Jeff

Welcome to the CVA. The different forum headings are not separate as such on our site more a means of keeping the various different content matter discussed or mentioned in some degree of order. This is unlike other sites where they have separate 'rooms'.

As regards your posting and the period of the first 4 months of 1941 the difficulty you might encounter when researching specifics is that different units for 'Service of a Hazardous Nature' were being formed all the time and some of those already formed were changing their names or grouped under changing Battalion names. One example being Special Service Battalions . The name was ordered not be used around the time you mention and they changed to all using Commando. Then there were other groups forming such as Layforce and the Special Air Service (SAS) and Special Boat Service - again these names often went through changes such as Squadron or section instead of service etc.

There were several small Commando raids planned in the first few months of 1941 but for various reasons these were cancelled at the last minute and never took place

That being said there was a major raid on Norway that took place arriving on the 2nd/3rd March 1941. It was called Operation Claymore and is often confused with another called Operation Archery. Operation Claymore involved No. 3 and No. 4 Commando and was on the Lofoten Islands.

Another raid at that time that took place was a combined RAF, 11th SAS, Royal Engineers, operation against the Tragino Aquaduct in Italy. They were all grouped together as X troop, 11th SAS Battalion (to make matters even more confusing this unit had gone through a name change also. It was originally formed as a Commando unit called No.2 Cdo., but was redesignated for Airborne Operations and was sent for parachute training - a new No.2 Cdo was then formed, the former being renamed 11th SAS Btn. A further name change would follow!). The raid was codenamed Operation Colossus . I have found reference to a Lance Corporal Henderson being on that raid.

All over Scotland there were different locations, houses, lochs, camps, bases used for training of the units from the Royal Air Force, Royal Navy , and Army, as well as the Military Intelligence, and other units of the UK and allied Governments. Many grouped under the title Combined Operations. A website ( nearly as good as ours - he says with a smile) is the Combined Operations site which you will find here :

http://www.combinedops.com/Combined_Ops_Index.htm

So you have your work cut out but I wish you well and let us know if you find anymore information

Regards

Pete

In addition to the above I should just make it clear that the 11th SAS Battalion went on to become 1 Parachute Battalion and ultimately part of the Parachute Brigade. The Special Air Service Units as we know today and formed in WW2 were separate again from this unit . If you are not confused by now you should be!

Pete,

Thank you very, very much for responding. I'll gladly put you on my Christmas card list! The best news, even though it may not be the same man, is that a "Henderson" is mentioned. This in itself is exciting.

I'm familiar with CLAYMORE and ARCHERY and while I wish it were that easy I just don't think that's one of raid's J.F. Connell and possibly Henderson, participated in. If you have data to the contrary I'd be delighted. The gist of my documentation is that in addition to raids that are well known there were others, not made public "even unto this day" as my document goes. I believe if this man had been on this particular well known raid there would be little reason not to say so unless there were other sub-operations involved that are still classified/senistive.

Your details are the kind of "sub-strata" of information I have been seeking all these years and knew must be there. I appreciate the other site as well. I'll check it out and see what's there. J.F. Connell specifically said Norway (and Holland), but due to the nature of the activities I wouldn't be at all surprised if Norway and Holland were used to provide broad details while maintaining the secrecy of the operations as he swore to do.

Your data about other groups is interesting and I'd like to follow-up on that with you and others who might be able to help catalog/ID them. Some I'll have heard of....others not.

Do you have a parent regiment listed for Henderson by chance or an Army number?

Many thanks again.

Jeff

Hi Jeff

Thanks for the email which was most interesting. I had been racking my brains for another raid in 1941 which I recall having heard of. I found it today. Now you may again have this already, but for what it's worth, and for others benefit, I will mention it here and also post the declassified American document detailing it which has been posted on our forum before. It was not in itself a Commando raid but was trained for and executed along Commando lines. Planning began around May in 1941 and the raid took place in August '41 in the utmost secrecy. It involved troops from Canada, Britain, and Norway. It involved 47 officers and 599 enlisted men, of which 29 officers and 498 enlisted men were from Canada. They trained in Scotland. The raid was on Spitzbergen. This document details more than just this raid. It is in fact an in depth study of the British Army Commandos for the US Military. It mentions, albeit briefly, Commandos from Canada. The details of Sptzbergen begin towards the end of the document - there is an index at the beginning of it.

http://www.cgsc.edu/carl/wwIIspec/number01.pdf

Regards

Pete

Pete,
Many, many thanks for this document. I had heard of and researched this operation, but I certainly DID NOT have this document. What a find!

I'm thousand's of miles from my research material, but as I recall there was one Army Commando (Number 12 or 14 I think) that had a high percentage of Canadians. There was another raid later in the war in the high Arctic with a Canadian Major (Capt?) Black involved. I believe he'd been a Canadian Pacific railroad employee before the war and a railroad was involved I believe. Flying by the seat of my pants now.

I often wonder if any of the folks mentioned in the Spitsbergan document you sent or Number 12 or 14 CDO might have started their Combined Ops experience in the same or similar groups as J.F.L. Connell. I'd be willing to bet so, but finding them this late is problematic.

This research has had many "spooky" twists and turns. Here's another mild one. The SOE Historians M.R.D. Foot and Gervase Cowell told me in 1999 or so that they suspected J.F.L. Connell might have been involved with the Small Scale Raiding Force (Maid Honour Force and later 62 CDO). The SOE connection would've made sense. It was a natural fit as J.F.L. Connell had been in the U.S. Navy before the war, but the timing didn't quite add up....unless it was a precursor force to SSRF...something SSRF turned into. Unlikely, but interesting.

Here's the spooky part; The West African Raid the SSRF made to capture German/Italian ships was made in the harbor of Santa Isabel on the island of Fernando Po....less than 1 mile from where I'm typing this. Its now called Malabo and Bioko Island. Would that have not been ironic if SSRF were indeed this man's original unit? I'd never heard of this place before coming here this year. I always assumed the raid in West Africa meant a Vichy or a German possession.

Thank you again for burning the midnight oil for me.

Jeff

This message was edited 14 times. Last update was at 24/07/2010 17:05:36

I believe it was No. 14 Commando who had quite a few Canadians in, although the existence of that Commando unit was short lived. The Captain Black you mention was Captain Graeme Delamere Black DSO MC who was executed after capture by the Germans along with other members of his raiding party - the raid was codenamed Operation Musketoon and took place on the 20th Sept. 1942. It is well documented here and we have several pictures in our gallery of Captain Black who was in No. 2 Commando. He was from the South Lancashire Regt. When volunteers were called for he joined No.4 Independent Company after which the Commandos were formed. Some of his training in the Independent Company was in an area of Scotland called Glenfinnan. I know it may be going off track a bit from your original post but here are some links to Canadians on our site. You probably have much of this stored in your research files. The last - Daniel Serrick and his early training might - be an avenue to explore though. Also it may help any others searching for Canadians in the future

Here is a link to the CVA No.2 Commando In Remembrance album - you will find those who died on Operation Musketoon about two thirds of the way down on page 1

http://www.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/2/In+Remembrance/

Pictures of those who escaped and information about the raid can be found in the main No.2 Cdo. album about half way down on page 1:

http://www.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/2/

Of course Operation Checkmate had a Canadian in as well - Petty Officer Harold Hiscock. A photo and a bit about him is in our WW2 gallery here:

http://www.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/WW2/Operation+Checkmate/

Finally you may wish to send a private message to the creator of this post regarding another Canadian - Daniel Serrick. There are some interesting links to photos.

http://www.commandoveterans.org/cdoForum/posts/list/584.page

Thats about all I have so good luck and let us know how things progress

Regards

Pete

nb. all the men below were either executed or killed in action
We will remember them

Hi Jeff
Have you seen this book and Youtube video?:
John M Makie, The Spy Worker 1942 - 1946. "In WW2 John's father volunteered for top secret clandestine work while serving in the Canadian Military. He and his 71 comrades had no rank, did not participate in any parades, were never photographed and they received no rewards or recognition. More information about the book at www.thespyworker.com and http://www.youtube.com/watch.?v=20i66Z1JhCU."
He was in actions in Norway , so it may be of interest.
Here's the Amazon link:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Spy-Worker-John-M-Makie/dp/1441518355/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1280848619&sr=8-3

I also had a look at the link tothe .pdf doc that Pete gave in this thread. I read with interest as I hoped it may give an insight into my father's service, but it gave no extra info.
However, I decided to change the number preceeding .pdf in my browser to see what else might be there. There are a number of papers similar to the linked one about how the Germans created sea defences, how they trained infantry etc. I spent ages trying all sorts of number variations, and sometimes a .pdf would appear, most unclassified in 2003, and other times no doc could be found. For example the pdf number 05 is on German Use of Chemical Weapons but is not available. After looking for ages I found a comprehensive Index to Intelligence Publications, Military Intelligence Division, War Department; it is 121 pages, and you may find some indexed documents which relate to your research:

http://www.cgsc.edu/carl/wwIIspec/number23.pdf

The doc is held at the Combined and General Staff College, Fort Leavensworth, which holds the Combined Arms Research Library. (Pete I hope I'm not stepping on your toes in finding this further paperwork if so, I apologise).

Hope this helps.

Anne

Hi Anne

Post away :) The more people researching and posting the better. Keeps the forum alive !

Anne,

Thank you very, very much. I'll pursue that book and see if I can "peel" back another layer of this Combined Operations "onion". I see parallels already.

I'm familiar with Camp X and while they technically started later than J.F. Connell's time in service I don't rule out that Camp X was the formalized result of previous recruiting and training under less organized circumstances. What I mean to say is that military's routinely put a program in place by the seat of their pants when the need suddenly arises. Later lessons learned reveal that something more formal and sustainable is the real answer. In late 1940 and early 1941 the free world was scrambling for an answer and couldn't afford to be too picky. Anyway, it wouldn't surprise me if this "pipeline" began earlier that 1942. Just a hunch.

Thank you very much again. Very exciting stuff.

Jeff

Found some pictures on the Imperial War Museum site

http://www.iwmcollections.org.uk/dbtw-wpd/exec/dbtwpub.dll?AC=NEXT_RECORD&XC=/dbtw-wpd/exec/dbtwpub.dll&BU=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.iwmcollections.org.uk%2FqryPhotoImg.php&TN=Uncat&SN=AUTO30263&SE=4715&RN=139&MR=25&TR=0&TX=1000&ES=0&CS=1&XP=&RF=phoResults&EF=&DF=phoDetails&RL=0&EL=0&DL=0&NP=1&ID=&MF=WPENGMSG.INI&MQ=&TI=0&DT=&ST=0&IR=0&NR=0&NB=10&SV=0&BG=0&FG=0&QS=

Amazing stuff really...that's why this site is so valuable. I have no idea how you came across these photos, but it just confirms to me that there is no telling what's out there and with more eyes looking and ears listening there is no idea what we'll turn up next. The time period is a little askew, but it is a trail to follow. Thank you Gavin.

Also, thanks to Anne for the contact with The Spy Worker. I'm in touch with the author and we are ON TO SOMETHING. Perhaps the best lead in 15 years of research. Anne you are on my Christmas card list!

Best,

Jeff

Jeff:
I know of a simlar story regarding at least 2 Canadian soldiers who took part in an undocumented commando raid in mid-November 1941. I have no documentation regarding the raid itself nor does the vet's service record make specific mention of his attachment to a British Commando training unit or participation in action but it is not inconsistent with such activity.
Although this action was in France, not Norway and later in 1941, what reallly caught my attention were your words, "these small raids were not documented and the participants "sworn to secrecy forever"". That is prrecisely what my source says to this day. I see the same possibilities you have that they never happened or they were ?CDO (hush-hush) raids never acknowledged for some super covert reason. The veteran is very reluctant to talk about it 70 years later but still knows too many consistent details for it to be a fabrication. The second possiblity, while understandable while the war was raging; it is difficult to fathom why after such a long time and freedom of info laws that the facts still remain hidden.
I too have done research at the National Archives in Ottawa and have contemplated going to Kew in the UK.
I have just registered on this site specifically to make contact with you as I would like to discuss this matter with you further if possible!
Thanks for your posting as it has renewed my faith that there might indeed be something to this story of other commando raids out there.
Seasons' Greetings,
Terry

Terry,
Are you still out there? Very intriguing stuff. Sent several PMs with no reply. Please drop me a note when you have time. I'm in the UK now and will be at Kew for two weeks starting tomorrow or so (Jan 3rd). I'll be happy to assist you with names/operations, etc. if you'd like.
Happy Holidays,
Jeff

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 30/01/2011 16:14:04

In 'The Green Beret' by Hilary St. George Saunders, it states: No.14 Commando had been designed to carry out long-distance raids in the Arctic Circle, to destroy the torpedoes and bombs at the Luftwaffe base in the north of Norway, whence their bombers set out to attack our Murmansk convoys. The Commando included a number of Canadians and Red Indians. Much training was carried out but no operation took place, bad weather being the main but too formidable obstacle.