Please help! No. 10 Commando based in Dover?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 05/06/2010 00:54:30

I hope you chaps could help me with a query relating to a possible stationing of No.10 Inter-Allied Commando.

I am a volunteer working for the Western Heights Preservation Society based at Dover in Kent - the Western Heights is a huge (and sadly neglected) Napoleonic series of fortifications that was heavily expanded in the 1860s. It was built to defend the harbour from attacks and forms the counterpoint to Dover Castle on the opposite side of the valley. One point in the fortifications is known as the Drop Redoubt - this is a five sided bricklined fortification that was hacked out of the chalk and directly overlooks the Dover valley.

Although we have a fair amount of information on the earlier phases of the building, one fascinating photo has come to light that depicts soldiers of 10 Commando marching on the parade ground on the roof of the Drop Redoubt. However, we have been unable to determine any further information on the WW2 use of the structure.

Unfortunately I am not aware of which Troop was based in Dover or for how long - we just have this one tantalising photo. There is a reference provided by Nic in the 'French Commando' thread here of some men from the French Troop in September 1943 scaling the cliffs for practice in preperation for Operation Hardtack, but that's about it.

As you can imagine, for the purposes of our displays and informing the public as to a full history of the site we would dearly love to find out more about this unit, especially in regards to the Dover Drop Redoubt connection - would anyone here have any information or be able to point me in the right direction?

Thank you very much for your time!

http://www.doverwesternheights.org/

Hi Phil

A very warm welcome to the CVA, I have had a quick look at a book that I have got which was written by Nick van der Bijl titled "No.10 (Inter Allied) Commando 1942 - 45". I can't see any direct mention of Dover as such, if you like I can scan the relevant pages and email them to you as there might be another mention of a place name that is close to or has some connection with Dover. Another avenue of research may be to try and contact the author, perhaps via the publishers ie Osprey Publishing.

www.ospreypublishing.com

Of course someone else on this site may yet have some more info to provide regarding this matter, if you would like me to email you the relevant pages mentioned above then send me an email address via a pm.

Good luck with your research, if you do manage to find anything out then please do update your message.

Cheers Andy

Phil,
It woud be interesting to see the photo you have. Could you post it onto the site for us all to see please ?

Hi Phil

Attached is a scanned copy of one of the pages from the afore mentioned book, this page outlines all of the raiding activities carried out by No.10 (IA), including the dates, Operation name and port that the raid was conducted from. As you can see Dover is mentioned on a number of occaisions, hope this is of some assistance.

Cheers Andy

Ps I would just like to second Peter's request for the photo to be uploaded on to the CVA, it would be a great addition to the photo archive.

Cheers Andy

Hello To all on this thread

Operations by 10IA called 'Tarbrush' were also launched from Dover under force commander Major Hilton Jones. Code named 'Hiltforce'.

I suppose any of the above could have paraded on the redoubt.

unfortunately I cant find any more specific info........but it may help.

Regards

John M

Hi Phil,

i will certainly look to expand on the info i provided in the Free French Commando from which you quoted.
In the meantime here is a link to a photo we have in our Gallery which shows C Troop, No4 Commando at Dover Castle...

http://www.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/units/4/troop+photos/4+cdo+C+troop+Dover+castle+apr42.jpg.html

Regards,
Nick

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 06/06/2010 00:25:24

Wow! Thanks for all the excellent and very informative replies - your assistance and time is really appreciated.

I'm afraid I don't have a copy of the photo to post at the present time but as soon as I do I will post it (with the permission of the owner of course). I believe it shows Lord Lovat inspecting a Commando attachment - it'd be great to identify which Troop of 10 Commando it was. We are right in the middle of a public open weekend at the Redoubt this weekend, reenactors and so forth, so I'll try and badger the owner of the pic for a copy next week when it's a little less frantic.

Now earlier this evening I came across a very interesting reference to 'Operation Abercrombie', an operation on 22nd April 1942 in which members of the Canadian Carelton and York Regiment accompanied 4 Commando on a failed raid to Boulogne. It was wrecked when they were picked out by a searchlight battery. Interestingly the report I came across recorded that the Canadians had been stationed a few days earlier in the "old (and dirty) moated work" Drop Redoubt prior to embarkation. Although they were sealed in (believe me, there is a single very heavy door!), it is thought members of the present Royal Observer Corps gave their presence away by talking openly down town in Dover. Could it be that 'C' Troop of 4 Commando in NIC's photo taken at Dover Castle in April 42 could even have been the men who participated in the raid?

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/his/rep-rap/doc/cmhq/cmhq081.pdf

The stationing of the Canadians in the Redoubt suggests that the long-abandoned Drop Redoubt was reserved by the War Department for Commando attachments immediately prior and post missions. It makes logical sense that French Troops of 10 Commando would have been treated the same way prior to Tarbrush and Hardtack. (Thank you for the operations scan Andy). I'm sure any unit on a clandestine mission, and doubly so those with accents, would be kept well away from the town or regular local units.

This is all pointing to a WW2 picture of the Napoleonic fort as having a town firewatcher (we have one reference) in the early years, possibly a couple of members of the Royal Observer Corps per day, yet being reserved for temporary housing of Commando units immediately prior to specific operations.

If the French Troop connection is correct, it's nice for our history as the Drop Redoubt came full circle. It started life to defend against the French, and ended its military career housing brave French soldiers fighting for Britain and freedom.

If it is of any interest, this is what the Drop Redoubt looks like these days:

http://www.doverwesternheights.org/drop_redoubt.htm

Thank you again for all your help.

Phil,
I have seen a reference which stated that No4 Cdo took part in a training exercise and successfully gained access to the Drop Redoubt - much to the shock and horror of the occupants...

Still trying to find my source.

Nick

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 07/06/2010 22:35:20

Hi Nick,

I've found a singular and sadly non-detailed reference to No.4 Commando performing an exercise raid on Dover Castle in 1943 and reaching the tunnels before startling the occupants! Maybe this is the same incident?

I had a look at the photo of Lord Lovat inspecting the troops at the Drop Redoubt yesterday on our display board and it appears that it was taken immediately pre-raid. Of course none of the Commandos had any insignia which makes identifying the unit pretty much impossible unfortunately...

Thanks again.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 07/06/2010 22:31:15

We struck some gold today - a Pathe news reel depicting the commandos of No.4 and the Canadian Carleton and York Regiment receiving their briefing at the Drop Redoubt by Lord Lovat immediately prior to the commencent of Op. Abercrombie on the 21st April 1942.

http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=22606

The one photo we have is taken from this same briefing (see attached, apologies for the poor quality). Although the photo doesn't show 10 Commando after all, it doesn't preclude them from being based there for the Channel raids as the Canadians briefly were. Just need some hard evidence...

Hi Phil,
I also found a reference to Lord Lovat...

During the Second World War the Redoubt was used as a base by a Commando unit commanded by Major Lord Lovat .
To enable guards to patrol the ditches doors were cut into the caponiers at ditch floor level. Slit trenches and machine gun positions were cut into the tops of the caponiers to defend the fort with more modem weapons.

In April 1942 as a temporary major, Lord Lovat, 2i/c of No4 Cdo, commanded 100 men of No. 4 Cdo plus 50 men from the Canadian Carlton & York Regt on Operation Abercromby - a raid on Hardelot village on the French coast...
Having quickly scanned through his autobiography (March Past) Lord Lovat makes no significant reference to Dover - other than it was a port from which many raids set off from and returned to.

Nick

Phil,
It seems that we're confirming each other's research - fantastic!

Nick

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 07/06/2010 22:47:56

That's a very interesting reference Nick - thank you. If you don't mind, please could I ask the source?

I know the cut moat entrances referred to well - one of these entrances cut into the ditch can be seen behind the re-enactors - I took this yesterday afternoon.

I've not yet manged to get a photo of the machine gun pits, put they are rather dangerous to get to as they are covered in slippery grass and out-of-bounds on top of the caponiers. I had a theory that they may have been cut by the Irish Guards Training Battalion who were briefly stationed there from September to October 1940 as we know they did a lot of work in the area, but it's good to have some evidence that it was Commando work.

Thanks again - this is getting very intriguing!

Hi Phil,

here's a link to my source - of course I can't vouch for the accuracy of the info but I have found that when carrying out research you often have to include some unsubstantiated info and eventually you'll find something that will make all the pieces come together.

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/6718681

Nick

Ah thanks Nick,

Believe it or not, I actually know the source of the photos - he drinks in one of my local haunts and I went on a private tour with him around some of the Western Heights fortifications last year. I'll have a chat to him next time I'm down the Park Inn.

Phil