4 Commando Red on Khaki wool opinions

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 22/05/2016 18:25:20

Hi Phill,

I am afraid this is a repro badge. I am collecting army commando since a number of years. I only know black red letters printed or embroidered.

I recommend the British and Commonweath badge forum you can learn a lot and avoid some costly mistakes.

Cheers,
JB

Phillip Lockett wrote:Gidday all

I am new to collecting Commando formation signs and cloth shoulder titles.

In Peter Taylor's book Allied Special Forces he shows a 4 Commando Red on khaki wool title worn c 1942.

My question is did they wear this style and is the one I show an original?

I believe its not as it doesn't look like the typical WWII era titles.

cheers

Phill

Gidday JB

Thank you and I agree its a reproduction or a fake for all of the reasons I outlined.

I have posted on BBF under Formation signs (should of under elite) had 90 views and no response.

Anyway im on a look out for a red on black dark blue 4 commando to finish off my Normandy SSI and FS collection.

Phill

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 23/05/2016 15:59:42

Dear Phill

"Training for D-Day started and in Christmas 1942 and the new year of 1943 saw No4 move from Troon to Winchester then to Falmouth. D-Day training complete they moved to a marshalling area in Southampton. No4 now with two troops of French Commando landed on D-Day 6 June 1944 at Ouistreham in France. They fought up to 26 August 1944. On the 6 September three months after they landed they came back to Southampton.
From Southampton No4 moved to Den Hann in Belgium to start training for the landings in Flushing. This was one of the most important battles in the war, yet forgotten, as the Allies were running out of supplies and could not get supplies up the Scheldt to Antwerp because of the German guns on Walcheren. The British and French Commandos were joined by a troop of Dutch Commandos. They moved to Berskins and across the Scheldt to Flushing on the 1 November 1944. Another successful raid.
They stayed in Holland doing small raids and coastal defence. They were relieved and moved back to Middelburg and on 30 March 1945 moved to Bergen-op-Zoom (some of No4 are buried in Bergen-op-Zoom). No4 were further honoured with their French Comrades when they marched as a unit alone in Paris to the Arc de Triomphe where Philippe Kieffer and Robert Dawson laid a wreath on the Unknown Soldier?s tomb. Robert Dawson wrote I doubt if any other British regiment had been honoured in this way.
Three French from 10 IA Commando were with No 4 at Dieppe but did not wear the No 4 Flash.

Best wishes

Bill

Thank you Bill

Whilst collecting WWII commando units Im in the process of getting reference books on their history , as I feel that knowing about the units history and deeds is extremely important along with the flash.

Much appreciated for the history of the 4th.

regards

Phill

Gidday all

Last week I received an email from another collector friend in NZ , who saw my post on warelics forum.

He won the auction and emailed me with the same conclusion , I asked him to take several pics including UV if he could for future reference.

Note there are white glow threads shown under UV.

Also the lettering is machine made and not WWII era /////

Definite fake.

Phill

Hi Phill,

Many thanks for the update.
As the majority on this forum aren't collectors, can you explain the significance of the 'white' thread when viewed under UV light please.
Does this indicate man-made fibres?
Would this mean there was less chance of them being available during the war years and therefore, these titles are post-war reproductions?

Nick

Gidday Nic

Apologies for not giving forum members a better background on what we collectors look for in reproductions or fakes.

Here is a brief history.

DuPont Industries worked on synthetic fibers in the late 1920's and produced the first synthetic product in 1940 sold to the public, nylon stockings. Note other countries were working on synthetic fibers from the 20's as well.

Synthetic fibers are stronger , more durable and has a better colour fastness than natural fibers, its also a lot easier and can be massed produced than natural fiber.

Whist it had a very limited use during WWII the main product it was used for, were parachutes & nylon stockings.

The Germans also developed synthetic fiber during the war.

Polyester fiber started to come into use in the mid 50's , when the fashion market started to warm to the properties and the cheapness in clothing designs compared to natural fiber's.

For the biggest producer of military emblems , The US started to use polyester thread from the mid 50's onwards.

So from a collectors point of view , when you use a UV light it detects a glowing sign on any man made synthetic fiber and only on "white" thread -(no other colour thread).

The glowing bobbin (reverse) thread in the pic is embedded into the insignia.

The overall look leaves a lot to be desired ,with the better pics, the khaki medium is shabby , the stitching is not WWII era ie////// and should resemble a spaghetti look on the reverse, the cheese cloth cotton backing I thought would of "sparked " up but you can easily get cheese cotton cloth.

The book that this came out was from 2000 , so the cloth title is at least 16-20 years old.

Anyway thats a brief , I hope it helps.

One more point a reproduction is what it means, that no one gets fooled and is easily detected , a fake is set out to deceive , but from what point and who?

Phill