COPP training

My grandfather was a Royal Engineers captain who was assigned to Combined Operations Pilotage Parties in mid-1944. Part of their training involved going on a condensed Commando course.

Ian Trenowden's book Stealthily by Night suggests that they all - navy and army personnel - went to Ardentinny. But Stuart Allen's Commando Country suggests that the navy bods went to Ardentinny (training alongside the RN Beach Commandos) and that the army lads went to Achnacarry. Confusingly, he says that the source for this is Trenowden's book, but I can find no reference to this in there! Some veterans I have spoken with have also suggested that COPP training would have taken place at Achnacarry.

Any advice or guidance that anyone can give to help clarify this for me would be much appreciated. My grandfather kept a detailed diary of his time on active service with COPP, but nothing from his period in training, so I'm anxious to try and fill in the gaps!

With thanks in advance.

Hi Rob, Not sure whether this is of any use but I have just posted a list of course intakes at Achnacarry in the WW2 Commando Training album on this link.

http://www.commandoveterans.org/cdoGallery/v/WW2/Commando+Training/courses/

Pete

Hi Rob,

Welcome aboard the CVA. I'm afraid I don't know too much about COPPs but I'll see what i can dig up.

nick

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 17/04/2010 00:53:58

Here is a link to an Army Council Instruction (ACI) showing the War Establishment (Army contingent to COPP.

http://www.warestablishments.net/Great%20Britain/Special%20Forces/Combined%20Operations%20Pilotage%20Parties%20December%201943.pdf

And here is a link to Special Forces RoH site which includes a couple of photos of Lt Cdr Wild and S/Lt Harbud:

http://www.specialforcesroh.com/browse.php?mode=viewc&catid=14

nick

Thanks for the replies, gents.

Pete, I just noticed those photos. If he was at Achnacarry I guess he'd have been part of either No. 5 Officers' Course or No. 6 Officers' Course - any earlier and he'd have still been training sappers at his Training Battalion, any later and he'd have been out in Burma on active service. Intriguing.

Hi

I don't know if these pages from James Ladd's Book Commandos & Rangers of WWII are of any use.

Cheers Andy

Final page from James Ladd's book.

Cheers Andy

Many thanks for those images, Andy - a book I wasn't previously aware of, and another to add to my slowly growing library!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 18/04/2010 14:27:05

Hi Rob

There were quite a few pages prior to the ones that I have just uploaded that describe the origins and reasons for the COPP formations and one further page at the back covering individual unit histories.
I see that in you first message that you stated that you have a detailed diary that your Grandfather kept, any chance that this could be scanned and uploaded on to the Forum, it would make a terrific addition to the Commando archive, or have you already done this?

Cheers Andy

I'd like to do something with it at some point in the future, but have to respect the wishes of other family members, too. It's also about 250 pages long, so possibly a bit too much to upload here!

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 05/02/2012 18:37:10

I've just received my grandfather's service record - lots of it!

There's an intriguing page that lists his training, including that after he joined COPP.

14-19 August 1944: aerial photo reconnaissance course at RAF Medmenham
21 August-9 September 1944: navigation course, HMS James Cook (Combined Ops landing craft etc.)
10 September-18 October 1944: 'COPP training course' Hayling Island

I am intrigued on two counts:

Firstly, there is no record of him attending Achnacarry or Ardentinny or wherever to get a green beret, yet we have his 'COMMANDO' shoulder flash. 14 August is immediately after he transferred from his Royal Engineers Training Battalion to join COPP. I guess he might have attended as part of the 'COPP training course', or maybe even afterwards as they did not sail for the Far East until early November 1944.

Secondly, there is mention of a 'mud course'. The handwriting is somewhat hard to decipher, but it seems to put the location as 'COXE, Marwe, Bombay', and it's under the authority of the Small Operations Group (which COPP operated under in the Far East). Yet the date is 10-15 August 1944, which is both when he was in the UK and straddles his pre-COPP time and the time he was on the photo recce course - so I suspect it was some other time and somebody has written down the wrong date, possibly 1945 as they were in/around India at the time.

Always the way: some questions answered, other questions raised!

Edit #1: intriguingly, it also suggests that he was a trainer on the COPP training course in Sept/Oct 1944 - I guess passing on his fieldworks expertise as that was his speciality at his TBRE. I guess it's possible to learn some things at the same time as teaching others!

Edit #2: Regarding the mud course, I suddenly thought, 'Hang on, if it was in 1945 then it'll be in his diary' - and there it is! "Started course on mud. Feel that much of it is a waste of time."